Help! Fish Flashing...no spots

[VG401]

I have a 15g tank with 4 guppies (2M 2F), a rainbow shark, angelfish, and dwarf gourami.
Lately my Rainbow Shark has been flashing quite often and I have seen the small female guppy do it once or twice. Her fins are also shut. Neither have white spots. One if the male guppies, who seems to run the tank, has a yellowish color around his head with a couple pink lines, like scratches on his scales. His swimming seems fine.
The tank has been set up for a month and I believe it is still cycling. I tested last night. 0 Nitrate&Nitrite, 1 Ammonia
Our tap water here is always hard, alkalinity is good (80), pH is btwn 7.2&7.8.
I haven't done a water change in a week because it WAS cloudy and my local pet store said leave it alone for a month to clear up and finish cycling. They also said not to add anything to lower the ammonia since less chemicals u add the better.
If anyone has advice I would greatly appreciate it. Maybe it will pass?

[Compass]

The ammonia is killing your fish. Do a water change now! Never trust an LFS to know what they are talking about. It is up to the fishkeeper to do the research on this stuff. Plus that rainbow shark and that angelfish will get way too big for that tank and are both known to be aggressive fish that will start killing your other inhabitants. They need to be rehomed or taken back to the LFS.

[Slaphppy7]

I have a 15g tank with 4 guppies (2M 2F), a rainbow shark, angelfish, and dwarf gourami.
Lately my Rainbow Shark has been flashing quite often and I have seen the small female guppy do it once or twice. Her fins are also shut. Neither have white spots. One if the male guppies, who seems to run the tank, has a yellowish color around his head with a couple pink lines, like scratches on his scales. His swimming seems fine.
The tank has been set up for a month and I believe it is still cycling. I tested last night. 0 Nitrate&Nitrite, 1 Ammonia
Our tap water here is always hard, alkalinity is good (80), pH is btwn 7.2&7.8.
I haven't done a water change in a week because it WAS cloudy and my local pet store said leave it alone for a month to clear up and finish cycling. They also said not to add anything to lower the ammonia since less chemicals u add the better.
If anyone has advice I would greatly appreciate it. Maybe it will pass?

Do a large water change right now...ammonia is too high...most pet store people are clueless when it comes to proper fish care

You should be monitoring for ammonia every day while cycling...how do you test your water?...what water conditioner do you use?

[VG401]

I have API ammonia test strips and Tetra 6in1 easy strips. When I do water changes I use AquaSafeplus but on my last change (30%) a week ago I used API stress coat in hopes to calm a fish that ended up dying. I usually have to put more then the reccomended amount since our tap water is very hard. And I also used TOPFIN ammonia remover. Maybe I should add that to today's water change so my ammonia doesn't get any higher?

Also, the shark and angelfish are maybe 2in right now and do not bother each other. You think I could keep them in this tank until they get bigger then get a bigger one to transfer them into?

[madagascariensis]

Check out the fish in cycling instructions in the beginner's section.
Your fish are likely irritated by the high ammonia levels in water.
Additionally, try returning the angelfish and rainbow shark or find another home for them. Both are territorial and require much larger tanks than 15 gallons.

[Slaphppy7]

The test strips are not accurate, you need to get the API liquid test kit...the stresscoat does nothing to help with aqmmonia during a water change...I know nothing about the Top Fin, but you need to use SOMETHING

Lots of us here use Seachem Prime, it will help bind the ammonia and chlorine in your tap water, and at least give your fish a chance

return the angel and the shark sooner, rather than later

You need to read and fully understand the cycling with fish sticky in the beginner's section

[VG401]

Oh no! All they said was that I needed to introduce the Angelfish last 😧
I will do a water change with AquaSafeplus and some ammonia remover since it's on hand. You think more than 25%?

I have read about cycling but it's a lot to take in. Will definitely go back to that.

[fishmommie]

You have been given great advice. The ammonia is way too high and is killing your fish.
Keep your ammonia and nitrites no higher than .25ppm while the tank is cycling. (see cycling with fish link in my signature line) Your goal, after several weeks of water changes is to have 0 ammonia and nitrItes and 20ppm or less NitrAtes.

I'm sure you want to keep the angel and the shark as they are beautiful fish, however, you have to think about what's best for all of your fish and those two simply will not work in that tank. They will grow fast and become more and more aggressive and you'll wake up one morning to dead or injured fish. so sorry.

[Slaphppy7]

I would do at least a 50% change, 75% won't hurt

Cycling with fish is no picnic, but it's not rocket science, either...you can do it...read and re-read the sticky as much as it takes for you to understand, it's located here: http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=36492

[fishmommie]

Oh no! All they said was that I needed to introduce the Angelfish last 😧
I will do a water change with AquaSafeplus and some ammonia remover since it's on hand. You think more than 25%?

I have read about cycling but it's a lot to take in. Will definitely go back to that.

You should do a 75% water change. Add enough Aquasafe for 15 gallons.
Check your ammonia level tomorrow and if it's above .25, do another 50% W/C. then check your water daily until your cycle is complete.
The ONE thing the LFS said correctly is the less chemicals the better. Forget the ammonia remover. Use your Aqua safe and when that's gone, you might consider Seachem's Prime as suggested by Slap. It's more concentrated and in the long run much cheaper.

[Fishhook]

Also, the shark and angelfish are maybe 2in right now and do not bother each other. You think I could keep them in this tank until they get bigger then get a bigger one to transfer them into?

No. they are just going to keep producing more ammonia. if you remove them now it will also help in lowering your ammonia levels faster.

[VG401]

Ay ay ay! I should have got a hampster! LOL totally kidding.

Well right away that link told me not to add ammonia remover so just water changes it is. The link also said not to cycle with bottom feeders and isn't that what a Rainbow Shark is?

Looks like I've got some work to do. Thanks so much all of you for your help.

[Slaphppy7]

Yes, you have ALOT of water changes in your future...try to match the temp of the new water as closely as you can to the tank temp....regardless of where the shark feeds, you have no choice now but to cycle with fish, or return them all, and do a fishless cycle

[fishmommie]

Many of us have gone through some rookie mistakes. That's why we are all so eager to help.

This is a great hobby if you get off on the right foot. Unfortunately, when most people walk into a fish store (me included) we ASSUME these people not only know what they're talking about but that they have the best interest of the fish in mind.
Now don't get me wrong. There are a lot of knowledgeable people who work in fish stores and give great advice - the problem is, in the large box stores, profit is the bottom line. the more they can sell you the more money they make. If a fish dies - then you buy more fish = more money. It's not the employee's fault. they have to walk the corporate line.
When you come to a forum like the AC, the only interest we have is helping and sharing from our experiences. I was a complete novice when I started a little over 2 years ago. Would not have the success I've had if not for this forum.
So - ask away, reread the cycling with fish stickie several times and if you're still having trouble with the basics, ask and we'll help.
BTW - if your male and female guppies survive, you are going to be overrun with guppies soon. When you return the rainbow and the angel, you might want to return the female guppies as well.
Then once your tank is cycled, you can add more fish. With the DW gourami in there and the male guppies, you'd have room for a few more, but not many.

[Slaphppy7]

^^^ Too true....just read the 10 gallon thread in my sig....I've been there, too, but this forum helped me in so many ways that I can't count them all

[Rocksor]

Does your tap water have chloramines? Check your water authority report to verify. If so, using Aquasafe does not neutralize the ammonia ( I didn't find anything on the label via the internet). You need Seachem Prime or Kordon Amquel. This will turn the toxic ammonia to non-toxic ammonium for 24 hours. If the ammonium is not consumed by bacteria, it will become toxic ammonia. In some cities, the toxic ammonia that comes from breaking the chloramine bond can be as high as 1ppm, which makes keeping the ammonia below 0.5ppm through water changes difficult in an uncycled tank.

Until you get either Seachem Prime or Kordon Amquel, you need to protect your fish from the ammonia that comes from breaking the chloramine bond when using Aquasafe, which means keep using the ammonia remover (are these chips?).

[mommy1]

The Aquasafe is fine, it neutralizes chlorine, chloramines, and heavy metals just like Prime.

[VG401]

Yes, you have ALOT of water changes in your future...try to match the temp of the new water as closely as you can to the tank temp..

My tank stays around 78. The heater came with the tank kit and can't be adjusted. I'm surprised that my cold tap water is above 85 degrees (Florida summer). So I treated with aquasafe and I'm waiting until it cools down a bit. Considering I only have 2.5g buckets (one for old water one for new) this may take a while.

My poor shark is still flashing, and check out this guppy...Hope I can add this pic right.
34769
34770
One if the male guppies, who seems to run the tank, has a yellowish color around his head with a couple pink lines, like scratches on his scales. His swimming seems fine.

[Slaphppy7]

I have the same problem with hot tap water here in Texas....freeze some water bottles for future water changes, just float them in the tank when adding warmer water...if you have an airstone, get it running and keep it running...if you don't have one, get one, they're pretty inexpensive

hard to tell what's up with the guppy, other than he appears bloated

[VG401]

Thanks again! I have a bubbler, but I bent the airhose a little because it seemed too strong, blowing things around what not. I can undo it. I also have 2 of those little moss ball things the petstore sells to create oxygen? Do I still need an airstone?

[Slaphppy7]

I would have it running on low, just to create some surface agitation and get a little gas exchange going at the surface, to help get some oxygen in the water column

[eltylT]

you've been given some great advise from some VERY knowledgeable FISHKEEPERS and IMO if you want those fish to survive and thrive you need to follow through with what you've been told . rehome the rainbow because it WILL become mean and is going to be stunted by too small a tank , the angel needs a larger tank too or it will not be happy . I don't have any EXP. with the DW gourami so you would need to use the advise the others have given to you . Please do the right thing and heed their advise . good luck and keep us posted.

[VG401]

Did a 50% water change. Idk if it would make them better instantly or not but after a couple hours the shark is still flashing and ammonia still says 1 via test strip. I will buy a liquid test kit tomorrow. So should I be chanhing the water 2x/wk or like, everyday?

[fishmommie]

Did a 50% water change. Idk if it would make them better instantly or not but after a couple hours the shark is still flashing and ammonia still says 1 via test strip. I will buy a liquid test kit tomorrow. So should I be chanhing the water 2x/wk or like, everyday?

The fish are bound to have some adverse effects that won't go away immediately.
I wouldn't take a chance. I'd do another 50% water change, making sure you add enough dechlorinator to treat the entire tank, not just the water you replaced. Fingers crossed that you can get on top of this.
You're giving it a good try!

[VG401]

34782
Sooo I didn't think to look closely at my Angelfish since it is swimming fine but just noticed some white spots. In this pic you can see 3 on the yellow around her eye.
I would just return to the pet store woth the shark since my tank is too small anyway, but unfortunately I am passed the 14 days. :(
Should I add salt? I don't even know at this point.

[fishmommie]

Sorry, I can't see anything by this photo.
If it's ich you're concerned about, it generally first shows up on the fins and the tail. If you have a magnifying glass, try to get a good look.
In the mean time, make that 2nd water change. the ammonia is your biggest problem right now. If the fish do develop little white salt like spots, then we'll deal with that.

[Fishhook]

I would do the water change everyday and treat for ich. If not already, your entire tank will get it. In the meantime if the angel is the only one showing spots, quarantine her/him if you can.

edit: just to add...it may be just the pic or angle but the angel's fins look a little tattered?

[VG401]

Ok. I will come back tomorrow after another WC and some liquid test strips. I guess I'm confused because when changing, my conditioned tap water also reads a little high on ammonia so I'm not sure how I'm diluting it. Edit: I am adding enough aquasafe to treat the whole tank not just new water.

As far as the angelfish it does look like white salt like spots but I don't have a magnifying glass.

Some of my co-workers have bigger tanks, maybe they will adopt. Tomorrow is a new day! 😵

[fishmommie]

I would do the water change everyday and treat for ich. If not already, your entire tank will get it. In the meantime if the angel is the only one showing spots, quarantine her/him if you can.

I'd feel a little better about treating for ich if we were certain the tank is infested. We may be looking at the results of ammonia poisoning. Any medication or heat treatment started now could unnecessarily stress the fish even more. It may be prudent to wait until tomorrow and then assess if ich is an issue.
As for QT - IF the angel ends up having ich, you can bet the entire tank is infested so QT at this point wouldn't serve much purpose. the entire tank would need to be treated.
Again, if it was my tank, I'd wait until tomorrow and see if there are any more signs of ich before doing more than another 50% W/C.
Just my 2 cents.

Oh - as for returning the fish - they need to get healthy first. And no, at this point, you may not receive a refund, but they still need to go back or as you suggested, see if you can rehome them with someone who has an appropriate sized tank.

[VG401]

Even though I have been adding enough aquasafe for the whole tank the new water has high ammonia is this ok?

[cm12setx]

How many water changes have you done today? And how much? And have you tested your tap water for ammoina too just to be sure it dose have any in it?

[cm12setx]

Also what did you use as substrait in your tank?

[VG401]

Today I've done one 50% water change and I tested the tap water for ammonia, it was around 1. I have sand in my tank not gravel.

[cm12setx]

Di another water change to day abiut ten gallons. Can you get distilled water? You could ues it. Ut should be free of ammonia.

[Rocksor]

Since your tap water has chloramines, and 1ppm of ammonia is being released into your aquarium with every water change, I would use Seachem Prime. It specifically states that it will turn up to 1ppm of ammonia into ammonium, which is not toxic. It will still show up on the API ammonia test though. However, it will stay in this non-toxic form for 24 hours. Or use the ammonia chips, and test your water 2 hours later and see how much ammonia is reduced. You want the ammonia to get as close to 0.25ppm as possible.

Using distilled water can be dangerous to fish if you don't have a TDS meter and are a beginner fishkeeper. The fish can suffer from osmotic shock and die when used improperly.

Get a liquid test for ammonia at the least. It will accurately state how much ammonia is in your tap water.

[mommy1]

Since your tap water has chloramines, and 1ppm of ammonia is being released into your aquarium with every water change, I would use Seachem Prime. It specifically states that it will turn up to 1ppm of ammonia into ammonium, which is not toxic. It will still show up on the API ammonia test though. However, it will stay in this non-toxic form for 24 hours. Or use the ammonia chips, and test your water 2 hours later and see how much ammonia is reduced. You want the ammonia to get as close to 0.25ppm as possible.
This isn't quite right. When you add Prime to the tap water it will neutralize the ammonia added from the tap water and will continue to neutralize ammonia for 24 hours. After the 24 hours, the previously neutralized ammonia will remain in it's less toxic form, but new ammonia, added by the fish, extra food, or new untreated tap water will not be neutralized unless you add more Prime.

I'm not sure how ammonia chips work, do they remove/absorb ammonia or do they convert it to a less toxic form. If they remove it from the water then I don't recommend using them because they will stall the cycle.

Finally, those spots on the angelfish look like ich to me and I would start medicating. The problem here is you will need to watch the ammonia levels, keep them down to around .25ppm, and still maintain medication levels to cure the ich. If the ich has progressed to the point where you are seeing spots it is too late to remove the fish to isolation as the whole tank is now infected and must be treated. Ich often starts in the gills of fish and we don't usually notice symptoms quick enough to save the whole tank from being infected. I would do a large water change and then dose the tank with Quick Cure. Watch the ammonia, when it gets around .50ppm do a 50% water change and redose the Quick Cure at half the dose.

[cm12setx]

Do another water change to day about ten gallons. Can you get distilled water? You could use it. it should be free of ammonia.
sorry spell ck failed. and thank you Mommy1.

[Rocksor]

This isn't quite right. When you add Prime to the tap water it will neutralize the ammonia added from the tap water and will continue to neutralize ammonia for 24 hours. After the 24 hours, the previously neutralized ammonia will remain in it's less toxic form, but new ammonia, added by the fish, extra food, or new untreated tap water will not be neutralized unless you add more Prime.

I'm not sure how ammonia chips work, do they remove/absorb ammonia or do they convert it to a less toxic form. If they remove it from the water then I don't recommend using them because they will stall the cycle.


Actually Prime chemicals bind with toxic ammonia for 24-48 hours (I stay on the side of caution and only rely on the 24 hour period and retreat with Prime every day) and turn it into ammonium. It is an instant reaction when Prime comes in contact with toxic ammonia, and it can only keep it that way for a limited amount of time. Any ammonia that is bound for 24-48 hours, will be released and turn back into toxic ammonia. It does NOT stay bound forever as ammonium. So if toxic ammonia molecule1 and Prime molecule1 come in contact at 6am, you get non toxicammonia+Prime1 and it stays that way for at least 24 hours. So if you have 100 molecules of Prime and only 50 molecules of toxic ammonia, then you have 50 free molecules of Prime that can bind new toxic ammonia produced by fish, etc. This capability lasts for at least 48 hours after Prime touches the water in the aquarium. Unbound Prime molecules degrade over time in the aquarium. Any new ammonia created after the 1 dose of Prime will be turned into ammonium within this 24-48 hour period of adding Prime. This means if toxicammonia2 is bound at later in the day at 8pm by Primemolecule2 and turned into non toxicammonia+Prime2, then the non toxicammonia+Prime2 will be released into the toxic form at the same time as non toxicammonia1+Prime1.

In terms of neutralizing chlorine and chloramine, I wouldn't trust Prime to perform that function after 3 hours of adding it to the aquarium.


Tech support from Seachem states:


Prime will keep the water safe for up to 48 hours. If you are treating the tank to keep ammonia detoxified while a tank is cycling or after an ammonia spike, I would treat every other day or any time the fish begin to show signs of stress until the ammonia drops back down. You can put an Ammonia Alert in the tank to make it easier to identify when toxic free ammonia begins to rise.

Although Prime works to detoxify ammonia for 48 hours, I would still recommend re-dosing the tank directly before adding chlorinated water if it has been more than a few hours.
http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=7267

Ammonia chips take in the ammonia. It doesn't turn it to ammonium. With 1ppm of ammonia from tap, it is prudent to make sure that ammonia is brought down to a safe level for the fish in the aquarium as it cycles. If the OP's tap water only had 0.25ppm of ammonia, then I wouldn't use ammonia chips. As it stands, water changes will never the ammonia be brought back down to less than 0.5ppm. I also wouldn't want to rely solely on Prime to keep 1ppm of ammonia safe as the fish is producing waste to keep increasing the ammonia beyond 1ppm value.

[VG401]

Ok fish gurus here is an update: Maybe it's wishfull thinking but this morning my fishies were looking a little better. The shark doesn't seem to be flashing as often and call me crazy but the Angelfish has less spots? Attaching a pic of one I can definitely still see on the black part of top fin.
34801

On my way to work I stopped to get the API master liquid kit (does this check for ammonia also?) And figured I would bring a water sample. Water tested the same (0 nitrites & nitrates, hard, 7.2ph and still reading 1 ammonia) The associate suggested SafeStart to get my cycle going and reduce ammonia, I grabbed it just in case and will have to wait til I get home tonight to do my second 50% WC.

Seachem sounds like a good idea from what I am able to understand, but I already have some Aquasafe left and a bottle of API StressCoat which conditions the water as well. Maybe possible to use these up first?

So tonight when I change the water, you think its a good idea to also add SafeStart? As far as ich, should I start treating that as well? And with quick cure or salt?

Ps. I also still have that API ammonia remover I am avoiding.

[Rocksor]

This capability lasts for at least 48 hours after Prime touches the water in the aquarium.

I meant to say Prime can only bind new ammonia for at most 48 hours after touching the water, and that the binding period is limited by when Prime touched the water.

[Rocksor]

On my way to work I stopped to get the API master liquid kit (does this check for ammonia also?) And figured I would bring a water sample. Water tested the same (0 nitrites & nitrates, hard, 7.2ph and still reading 1 ammonia) The associate suggested SafeStart to get my cycle going and reduce ammonia, I grabbed it just in case and will have to wait til I get home tonight to do my second 50% WC.

Seachem sounds like a good idea from what I am able to understand, but I already have some Aquasafe left and a bottle of API StressCoat which conditions the water as well. Maybe possible to use these up first?

So tonight when I change the water, you think its a good idea to also add SafeStart? As far as ich, should I start treating that as well? And with quick cure or salt?

Ps. I also still have that API ammonia remover I am avoiding.

How much toxic ammonia can Aquasafe bind?

I haven't had consistent luck with bacteria in a bottle. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Salt is easier on the fish and can be combined with raising the temperature to 86F. This high temperature will speed up the life cycle of ich, and prevent it from reproducing. The salt will kill the ich when it falls from the fish or hatches from the substrate. In the white spot form that you see, ich cannot be killed.

[cm12setx]

Ok fish gurus here is an update: Maybe it's wishfull thinking but this morning my fishies were looking a little better. The shark doesn't seem to be flashing as often and call me crazy but the Angelfish has less spots? Attaching a pic of one I can definitely still see on the black part of top fin.
34801

On my way to work I stopped to get the API master liquid kit (does this check for ammonia also?)yes it is included in the kit. And figured I would bring a water sample. Water tested the same (0 nitrites & nitrates, hard, 7.2ph and still reading 1 ammonia) The associate suggested SafeStart to get my cycle going and reduce ammonia, I grabbed it just in case and will have to wait til I get home tonight to do my second 50% WC.

Seachem sounds like a good idea from what I am able to understand, but I already have some Aquasafe left and a bottle of API StressCoat which conditions the water as well. Maybe possible to use these up first?yes on stress coat.

So tonight when I change the water, you think its a good idea to also add SafeStart?I am not sure if these products really work but I don't think I it will hurt also. As far as ich, should I start treating that as well?wait another day a keep watching angel And with quick cure or salt?

Ps. I also still have that API ammonia remover I am avoiding. not just yet

[cm12setx]

"Using distilled water can be dangerous to fish if you don't have a TDS meter and are a beginner fishkeeper. The fish can suffer from osmotic shock and die when used improperly."

But if you keep adding ammonia from tap water how muck chemicals are you going to add? 15 gallons mix 3 gallons distilled and 3 tap you will reduce both ammonia and hardness of water by half but also reduce tank water ammonia. Do you want chemical soup or toxic ammonia or osmotic shock. its pick you choice.
we are all trying to help. and have different opinions of how to do this. while keeping it simple for a beginner to learn from us.
we want to help you.

[Rocksor]

"Using distilled water can be dangerous to fish if you don't have a TDS meter and are a beginner fishkeeper. The fish can suffer from osmotic shock and die when used improperly."

But if you keep adding ammonia from tap water how muck chemicals are you going to add? 15 gallons mix 3 gallons distilled and 3 tap you will reduce both ammonia and hardness of water by half but also reduce tank water ammonia. Do you want chemical soup or toxic ammonia or osmotic shock. its pick you choice.
we are all trying to help. and have different opinions of how to do this. while keeping it simple for a beginner to learn from us.
we want to help you.


If you play around with TDS levels by using distilled water without a TDS meter, that is more dangerous than using ammonia chips. Do you know the GH/KH and TDS of the original poster? Can you with confidence say that with their water that osmotic shock will not happen when mixing distilled water?


Osmotic shock or osmotic stress is a sudden change in the solute concentration around a cell, causing a rapid change in the movement of water across its cell membrane.

If a fish is moved from an environment with a higher TDS level, to a lower TDS level too fast, they will have no control of how fast minerals are lost from their body.

[mommy1]

If you play around with TDS levels by using distilled water without a TDS meter, that is more dangerous than using ammonia chips. Do you know the GH/KH and TDS of the original poster? Can you with confidence say that with their water that osmotic shock will not happen when mixing distilled water?
If a fish is moved from an environment with a higher TDS level, to a lower TDS level too fast, they will have no control of how fast minerals are lost from their body. This is true. fluctuating TDS, GH/KH are more dangerous to fish than fluctuating pH, and will kill faster than ammonia. I still don't recommend the ammonia chips. As long as the OP adds conditioner (preferably Prime) to each water change, ammonia should not be an issue. Since it is a heavily stocked tank, water changes will probably be every 24 hours, so conditioners will be added each 24 hours.

[VG401]

Salt is easier on the fish and can be combined with raising the temperature to 86F. This high temperature will speed up the life cycle of ich, and prevent it from reproducing. The salt will kill the ich when it falls from the fish or hatches from the substrate. In the white spot form that you see, ich cannot be killed.

My heater can't be turned up or down. It keeps the tank around 78. Will salt still work? What kind of salt?

So, as long as I continue to do a 50% water change everyday the ammonia won't harm the fish because the conditioner I have right now masks it for 24hrs? Will the ammonia eventually start to go down without adding the safestart?

Thanks everyone for your help!

[Rocksor]

1. The salt will help kill the ich, but since you cannot increase the temperature, the ich will stay for a longer period of time. Do you have plants? If so, then I would use the Quick Cure that you purchased and follow the directions. If you don't have plants, you should put in 3 tablespoons of salt per 5 gallons and treat for 3 weeks after the last visible whitespot is gone (the salt is higher and treatment is longer due to temp is at 78F). Add the total salt dosage over a 48 hour period, and dissolve in a container filled with tank water. Whenever you do a water change, you have to add the salt back in that was removed, so if you change 5 gallons, you have to add back in 3 tablespoons. You can use ice cream salt, pickling salt, kosher salt, aquarium salt, or even marine salt like instant ocean. The cheapest is ice cream salt and pickling salt.

2. Get the ammonia liquid test. If the ammonia is over 1ppm, I would put a second dose of Aquasafe one hour later. I'm guessing that it can neutralize up to 1ppm of ammonia in a single dose.

3. I have never used SafeStart and Quick Cure, so I am unsure if the QuickCure will kill the bacteria in the SafeStart. However, SafeStart (if works as advertise) would be fine to use in conjunction with salt.

Is your thermometer in the aquarium? I'm wondering how you are determining the temperature.

[VG401]

Ok I think I'm getting it! I don't have plants. So since I have 15g tank, I need 9tblsp salt all together but I need to gradually add it in within 48hrs? So tonight, when I do a 50% WC I can add 4.5tblsp salt and tomorrow when I do another WC add the full 9?... Unless tomorrow I change less then 50%.

Then once the spots are gone I still have to keep adding salt with each WC for 3 weeks.

[Rocksor]

Ok I think I'm getting it! I don't have plants. So since I have 15g tank, I need 9tblsp salt all together but I need to gradually add it in within 48hrs? So tonight, when I do a 50% WC I can add 4.5tblsp salt and tomorrow when I do another WC add the full 9?... Unless tomorrow I change less then 50%.

Then once the spots are gone I still have to keep adding salt with each WC for 3 weeks.

Since you are adding the salt tonight, how many hours do you have before you go to bed after a water change?

The total dosage over a 48 hour period is under the assumption that you will be adding 4.5 tablespoons of dissolved salt (50% of the total dosage) over a 9-12 hour period, going to bed, and then adding the other half over a 9-12 hour period the next day. Adding 4.5 tablespoons of dissolved salt is rather quick in less than 1 hour. In your case, I would add 1.5 teaspoons of dissolved salt every hour (3 teaspoons make a single tablespoon).

Let's say you add 6 teaspoons before going to bed. The next day you do a 50% water change. While you are adding water back in you can IMMEDIATELY add back in 3 teaspoons of dissolved salt as you refill. The fish is already used to this salt level. Once you finish refilling, add an additional 1.5 teaspoon of dissolved salt, and wait another hour to add the next 1.5 teaspoon, etc.

I find it best to use a notepad to keep track of how much is added , and how much more I need to add.

After adding salt, observe the fish for 15-20 minutes after adding the salt. Stop adding if they start to act strange. Add the dissolved salt as far away from the fish as possible, or get the fish away from the intake of the filter and add the dissolve salt near that.

[VG401]

Ah. Well I'll be adding it only 2-3 hrs before bed. Thanks for spelling it out for me! Lol

Maybe I should wait till after all that to add safe start? Or you think the ammonia is the first thing I should address?

[VG401]

I do have a thermometer in the tank btw. Here's my plan:

50% waterchange add 10ml of safestart then start adding 1.5tsp of dissolved kosher salt every hr

[Fishhook]

too bad there's not an easy and fast way to make flow-through system for times just like this (or maybe there is)...water would get continually cycled and filtered with fresh water being pumped back in to the tank.

(crap, now Im thinking how to "mcgyver" a spare 50gal rain barrel into reservoir for fresh cycled tank water)

[VG401]

Now I know why you guys are always asking what I'm using to test water, the liquid kit is much different but much easier to read. When I got home last night the ammonia in the tank read 1 or more
34836

I immediately started a 50% WC adding a little more Aquasafe than recommended cause normally my tap needs it. (Hard water). And I did test the ammonia and ph in the tap water since now I have to get used to my big shot test kit. The ammonia was about .5 and ph 7.6?
34837
The test kit said it should be 7 for a community tank but I didn't know what else to do and obvy needed to get going on this WC....so I ignored it. :rolleyes:

So I changed the water and added 10ml of safestart as recommended in hopes to lower ammonia. During the water change my rainbow shark got VERY pale (happened during the water change before this one too) so I decided not to start adding salt right away. After water change I checked ammonia
34838

It looked better! Well I checked it again this morning and here's where I'm at
34839

This morning I started adding 1.5tsp kosher salt every hour and managed to do it 3x. Seeing as that's only a little more than 1tblsp my "live in partner" should be able to continue adding salt later today. 😄 Then when I get home tonight I'm sure I'll have to do it all over again. Another 50% WC?

More fish are flashing but the rainbow has it's color back and my little guppy seems to be opening her fins and swimming better.

One last question, am I crazy? Lol

[Slaphppy7]

No, you're not crazy, first of all

And second, anytime ammonia is over .25, do a large water change

water changes stress the fish, scares them a bit, hence the loss in color...mine lose theirs too during a PWC

Never used salt, so can't help you there, sorry

[Rocksor]

What is the ammonia reading for your tap water? Is it still 1ppm?

For the PH test, once you get 7.6, you should also test the ph using the HIGH RANGE PH test.

the salt is being used for ich.

[VG401]

The ammonia in my tap water is .5 .... or 1? I took a pic last night
34875

I was wondering about the high range ph and if I needed to do it. I tried it but don't remember the result, I will try again tonight.

[VG401]

Ugh. Tap water. Ammonia. My brain hurts.

34880

That Ammonia remover is looking really good right now.

Does adding safe start really work if you're changing 50% everyday?

Maybe I should stop thinking.

[ijankrom]

Sounds like you're talking about a filter, large canister filter.

[VG401]

My fish are looking better! Didn't see any flashing or spots on the angel this morning.
The ammonia is still at 1 and pH looks like 7.8 on the high.
Going to continue w/ salt & water change with Stresscoat and Safe start tonight.

[gronlaura]

Ugh. Tap water. Ammonia. My brain hurts.

34880

That Ammonia remover is looking really good right now.

Does adding safe start really work if you're changing 50% everyday?

Maybe I should stop thinking.

Why are you adding Safestart? It's for cycling tanks. I cycled my 75 gal with it in 2 weeks, but my ammonia was at 1.0 ppm for about a week. They say it will remove ammonia - I don't know how, as it has ammonia in it to keep the BB in the bottle alive. Every time you add it, you add ammonia to your tank. Yes, the BB in the bottle will eat the ammonia, but between your tap water (looks like 1.0 ppm ammonia) and the Safestart, you are adding a lot of ammonia at one time when doing a PWC. And, the stuff is very expensive to use with PWCs.

Here is a link to a conversation with Tetra about using Safestart (read the entire answer from Tetra) - your ammonia levels will initially rise, not lower, with this product.

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle/58116-q-tetra-tetra-safestart.html

I would dump the Safestart, use Seachem Prime to detoxify the ammonia in your water (detoxifies for 24-48 hrs till your BB take over) and do PWCs as needed when the ammonia gets above .25 ppm.

[VG401]

My tank IS cycling actually. I was hoping it would speed things up and bring ammonia dowb. I'm going to grab the Prime since that seems to be the general consensus. Is that sold at the big pet stores?

[Fishhook]

http://www.petsmart.com/food-care/water-conditioners/prime-aquarium-water-conditioner-zid36-17551/cat-36-catid-300029?var_id=36-17551&_t=pfm%3Dsearch

yep look for the Seachem name. They have a few other SKUs as well.

[VG401]

Thanks McGyver! I would like that continually cycling/filtering/adding water device now! LoL

[VG401]

Got me some Seachem Prime! 5ml for 50gal?! Eek how do you measure 15gal. Picked up the Stability as well. I know I'm doing 50% wc everyday but it's gotta help this tank cycle no?!

Let's se how this goes!

[Slaphppy7]

Get some medicinal syringes, lots of times for free from your local pharmacy. Or cheaply at the dollar store.

They are used mainly for dosing children's medicine.

The increments are in ml...1 ml of Prime treats 10 gallons, so for a 15 gallon tank, use 1.5 ml., if you are using a siphon or hose to refill.

If you are using buckets, treat the bucket amount before you add to the tank.

Hope this helps.

[VG401]

I started with just a drop of Prime and after testing the new water it was clear I needed more. Another drop, another test, until I finally got the ammonia looking close to .25. I ended up using a cap full for each new bucket of water (2.5) gal. I know this is way more than the recommendation but it also says you can use up to 5times that much. Even with a cap full on each bucket the new water still registered .25 maayyybe .5 ammonia.

When doing water changes, do I have to get the new water to 0 ammonia?? Cause that seems impossible.

[Slaphppy7]

No...water treated with Prime will STILL show ammonia, but it has been rendered inert and harmless...I believe it changes it to ammonium, if I'm not mistaken....The API test cannot distinguish between ammonia and ammonium

You'll never get tap water that has ammonia to register 0 with Prime

Get the medicinal syringes as advise earlier, and treat with the right amount of Prime per the directions

[VG401]

Thanks! My fish are looking a lot better. Yesterday when I got home from work the ammonia was at 2! So I did 75% water change with prime and keeping the salt in there to treat ich (they all stopped flashing). I also added a cap of Stability since I'm praying for bacteria. Can't believe I haven't lost any fish during all this madness. Right now my tank is at .5 ammonia. But I guess it's safe since Prime protects for 24-48hrs. I'll probably still do a 50% wc today and tomorrow. To make matters worse I am going away Thurs-Sun. I bought one of those weekend feeder discs but I am so worried my tank will just keep rising in ammonia while I'm gone. Any links on how to prepare for something like that?

Never a dull moment.

[Rocksor]

Slap is correct that the API test will show total ammonia (non-toxic ammonium + toxic ammonia). Just follow the directions for Prime and dose for a single dosage on the entire tank. It will neutralize ammonia for 24-48 hours, up to 1ppm. Do not put more than 5 times the dosage as it will reduce the oxygen content of your aquarium and your fish will start to gasp for air. For your tank don't put more than double the dose (adding the second dose 1 hour later) if you think the ammonia is above 1ppm.

For temperatures at 84F or higher, use only use half a dose. This is because at higher temperatures there is less dissolved oxygen content in the water.

Do not feed your fish while you are gone. This will reduce the ammonia produced while you are gone. If you have the ammonia chips, I would put them in a filter while you are gone since you cannot do any water changes.

Also right now, reduce the feeding of your fish to every other day for only one feeding.

[Slaphppy7]

Good advice from Rocksor...not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but I would add an airstone to the tank while it is at elevated temps, helps get a little bit more oxygen into the water column...warmer water tends to hold less dissolved oxygen, as he mentioned

And the fish will be fine without being fed for a few days, 3 days even

[VG401]

All of my fishies are still alive! Haha I'm able to space my water changes out a little more now. About 2x a week. The water is staying at .5 ammonia rather than climbing everyday so that's a relief. Hopefully my cycle will finish soon.