PH lowering liquid

[Jlorenzo]

My tap comes out at around 7.8 PH which is too high for my three tanks. I keep them at 6.6, 6.8 and 7. I was using the tiny bottle of PH down from an API kit but its expensive and I change a lot of water between the three tanks. I found this stuff and a local hydro store, can I use it? I assume since it just alters the PH and doesnt have any other stuff in it, it should be fine? Let me know what you think. Heres the link

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/maintenance/ph_buffers/ph_down/

[Cliff]

It would seam this is meant for soil, and not water based applications. It's designed for lowering the pH of the nutrients found in soil.

If you look on page 7 of the manufacturer's MSDS sheet, you will even see the EPA as one of the components (Phosphoric acid) listed as a pollutant within the Clean Water Act (CWA) 311

I got all this info from the link you posted

[Jlorenzo]

any idea what the active ingredient in the API stuff is?

[talldutchie]

No, see if you can find the MSDS, those generally have a lot of useful information.

Phosphoric acid in itself is not necessarily bad but you're running a big risk of a blue algae problem if you'd use that.

If you want proper advice I'd advice you to share some more information like what you are keeping, what the decor is and, if you happen to know, any hardness information about your tapwater. Good chance there's alternatives which are going to turn out cheaper and which your fish will appreciate more.

[Jlorenzo]

No, see if you can find the MSDS, those generally have a lot of useful information.

Phosphoric acid in itself is not necessarily bad but you're running a big risk of a blue algae problem if you'd use that.

If you want proper advice I'd advice you to share some more information like what you are keeping, what the decor is and, if you happen to know, any hardness information about your tapwater. Good chance there's alternatives which are going to turn out cheaper and which your fish will appreciate more.

39 Gal. Tal l Neon Tetras, Lampeye Tetras, Emerald Corydoras, Silver Hatchets, and a African Clawed Frog.


40 gal breeder 6 Dojo Loaches Looking to add Hillstreams and Blue neon Gobys.


55 Gal. Senegal Bichir African Brown Knifefish Leopard Cntenopoma
all with a lot of Java moss and Java Fern. Not sure on the hardness.

[talldutchie]

I'm almost clueless on African species so no help there.

The dojo tank would indeed benefit from a ph that's a touch lower but your tap isn't necessarily bad for them.

On the 39.. I'm not entirely sure about the frog but all of the fish in there will not mind at all if you get a chunk of wood in there and 2-3 indian almond leafs. Thing is, could you life with tannin stained water?

Another way of thinking... how much have you spend on that pH down last year? And how much will a simple reverse osmosis device cost?

[Compass]

I agree with talldutchie on the dojo tank. The other tanks mates would be ok as well. 7.8 is pushing it, but it's no where near as bad as it would be for other species. All those come from faster flowing waters with more stone and minerals in the water than dissolved organic material. So that environment tends to have a slightly higher ph value than most tropical environments.

[Jlorenzo]

Well I have been using the API PH down stuff for a long time now but being in colorado and having just had a major flood nearby everyones PHs has spiked. Mine used to come out of the tap at 6.8 pretty much perfect. So to be clear I have always maintained the correct PH for each tank regardless of how high the tap was originally. After the flood though Ive been having to use much much much more PH down to get it to the correct levels. I think reverse osmosis would probably be worth looking into. Ive just been burning through the tiny API PH down bottles because weekly water changes to maintain about 130 gallons of water uses alot. The community tank does have driftwood so it does have some minor tannins that are less intense as time passes. the Dojo tank has a powerhead and alot of bubblers for dissolved oxy.

[Franks Tank]

Well I have been using the API PH down stuff for a long time now but being in colorado and having just had a major flood nearby everyones PHs has spiked. Mine used to come out of the tap at 6.8 pretty much perfect. So to be clear I have always maintained the correct PH for each tank regardless of how high the tap was originally. After the flood though Ive been having to use much much much more PH down to get it to the correct levels. I think reverse osmosis would probably be worth looking into. Ive just been burning through the tiny API PH down bottles because weekly water changes to maintain about 130 gallons of water uses alot. The community tank does have driftwood so it does have some minor tannins that are less intense as time passes. the Dojo tank has a powerhead and alot of bubblers for dissolved oxy.

I understand you've been using PH Down for quite a long time in an attempt to control your PH at 6.6. I have kept cardinal tetras in 7.6-7.8ph/KH 3-4 with no issues. I think maybe running a kh any lower then 3-4 is getting into dangerous territory. As long as water conditions are otherwise excellent you should not need to run your tank with so little buffer. This is very dangerous situation, to run with so little KH buffer. This will most certainly lead to a tank that runs regularly with (under the best most stringent care) small PH swings after every water change. If your PH moves from 6.5 to 6.6 this is to much movement on way to regular a basis. your trying to control PH buy lowing KH to .5. But this is nearly impossible to keep stable. A KH change from .5 to .4 would change ph dramatically!

PH down is also very unpredictable as its acid can take some time to completely neutralize and the PH will swing back up a bit. Ph down simply eats away at the waters buffering ability against PH swings buy lowing the waters KH. I think maybe it would be safer to mix RO water with your tap water and bring the KH down to no lower then 2-3 giving you a PH in the 7.4ish range.

OR, you can run water with a kh of 5-6 giving you a PH in the 7.7-7.8 range and lower it with pressurized Co2 to 6.6-6.7, much safer. Also PH swings caused by Co2 injection do not effect livestock in the same way as low carbonate hardness movements. Most tetras are tank raised anyway and used to higher ph. It's really water chemistry stability that matters most not obtaining the perfect numbers from the wild. Your not trying to breed them, just keep them right?

[Jlorenzo]

I understand you've been using PH Down for quite a long time in an attempt to control your PH at 6.6. I have kept cardinal tetras in 7.6-7.8ph/KH 3-4 with no issues. I think maybe running a kh any lower then 3-4 is getting into dangerous territory. As long as water conditions are otherwise excellent you should not need to run your tank with so little buffer. This is very dangerous situation, to run with so little KH buffer. This will most certainly lead to a tank that runs regularly with (under the best most stringent care) small PH swings after every water change. If your PH moves from 6.5 to 6.6 this is to much movement on way to regular a basis. your trying to control PH buy lowing KH to .5. But this is nearly impossible to keep stable. A KH change from .5 to .4 would change ph dramatically!

PH down is also very unpredictable as its acid can take some time to completely neutralize and the PH will swing back up a bit. Ph down simply eats away at the waters buffering ability against PH swings buy lowing the waters KH. I think maybe it would be safer to mix RO water with your tap water and bring the KH down to no lower then 2-3 giving you a PH in the 7.4ish range.

OR, you can run water with a kh of 5-6 giving you a PH in the 7.7-7.8 range and lower it with pressurized Co2 to 6.6-6.7, much safer. Also PH swings caused by Co2 injection do not effect livestock in the same way as low carbonate hardness movements. Most tetras are tank raised anyway and used to higher ph. It's really water chemistry stability that matters most not obtaining the perfect numbers from the wild. Your not trying to breed them, just keep them right?
Im not sure I understand. I check the PH of the tanks before water changes, then lower the PH of the new tap water in buckets before adding it to the tank so the PH is the same everytime I add new water. I do not know much about Kh or Dh or as how to monitor them and how they affect a tank. maybe you could help me there?

[Franks Tank]

I'm at work right know but will respond later tonight.

[Franks Tank]

Except in the case of Co2, KH is what controls where the PH sits. If for example, you have exactly 0 dKH (degrees of Carbonate/Bicarbonate hardness), the PH will sit right at 7.0 or perfectly neutral, this is not an acid and not alkaline. KH is the waters alkalinity or buffer. KH absorbs acids stopping the PH from swinging down fast and uncontrollably. 6.6 is acid and 7.6 is alkaline. As an alkaline it takes a lot of acid to move from PH 8.0 to PH 7.0 but after the KH buffer is completely gone it only takes a very small amount of acid to swing the ph farther down below 7.0 a very unstable condition to keep fish in that rely on stable conditions. In the wild a large body of water can sit at 6.8 or 6.6 and not move much because of acid introduction. Very little extra acid is being added in relation to the total volume of water in a lake. But in our tanks this is not the case, we’re keeping a lot of ammonia producing fish in a relatively very tiny body of water compared to the wild. Because the universe is such a wonderful place, we can use natural laws to our benefit. Keeping the water as an alkaline 3-4 dkh/7.5ish PH (tetras), 10-11dkh/8.0ish PH (cichlids), stabilizes our tanks PH for long enough for us to keep it that way through water changes that continuously replenish the carbonate/bicarbonate buffer and keep the waters PH/KH chemistry stable.

PH Down usage is probably one of the biggest causes of fish death to the inexperienced fish keeper. I hate PH Down and think it should be banned and not sold in aquarium stores at all. People pay much too much attention trying to create the perfect water conditions when in reality stability is far more important.

I will admit that when I kept schools of Neons/Cardinals in a Co2 injected tank they really were much more colourful and lived for 5+ years. Co2 allows one to obtain a PH of 6.6 without sacrificing the KH buffer, PH swings caused by changes in Co2 concentrations do not effect fish in the same way PH swings caused from a lack of carbonate/bicarbonate buffering do.

So to answer your question, either buy a proper Co2 injection system or use RO water to obtain a KH of 3-4dkh. Don’t worry about PH, buy a KH test kit. You can’t successfully keep Neons or Cardinals in a tank that has less than 1 or 2 dKH, the PH swings will kill them off way faster than if you just kept them at 3-4dkh or 7.5ish PH. Do a search on KH/PH water chemistry and read. It’s very interesting stuff.