Dwarf Hair Grass barely growing

[Ku0915]

Hey all. I'm about to give up on carpeting my DHG since I've had very little luck with it, despite going to multiple forums and my LFS for help. ):

I've had my tank set up for almost 3 months now. I redid it from before and went for a natural look. I currently have Java fern, Java moss, some stem plants, amazon swords, and DHG, and may be adding some water sprite.

My tank is a 20 gallon high with 2 T5 24 watt high output bulbs, Eco-complete substrate, and DIY CO2 system. I have used root tabs and am now dosing Flourish Iron, Flourish Trace, and Flourish after some of my plants begin yellowing and browning. Everything else seems to be growing decently except my DHG. It has barely spread at all in 3 months... I can barely even see the difference from Day 1. I see runners, but there aren't many at all and it's just growing extremely slow. On top of that, parts of bunches are browning and yellowing as well, even after I fertilize. The CO2 remains on for 10-12 hours a day with the lights, then an air pump comes on at night. My KH level was 9 when I tested it so I think I have plenty of carbon... lol.
At this point, I'm not sure if it's best to just try something else or just let it be. I know it can take a while sometimes, but 3 months and barely seeing any growth means there's something off. I just don't know what because I've tried everything people have told me to do, but still no progress. So, this is the last forum I'll ask for help from until I consider just trying a new carpeting plant. Would love to grow this one though...
Any ideas? Any help is appreciated

[genocidex]

For dhg to grow fast you need lots of light and co2. Sadly i dont think 48w of t5nos will do the trick

[korith]

I agree with genocidex, I never had much luck with hair grass until i went with pressurized co2 and high light. You could try dwarf sag, once it settles into the tank its roots tend to spread fairly quickly.

[Ku0915]

Oh wow, I followed charts too and they considered my lighting high. Guess that chart didn't apply to my tank too well lol.
I just bought this lighting system so no way I can buy a new one, and I can't afford pressurized CO2 any time soon. Besides Dwarf Sag, would there be any other carpeting plants that would work well? I've been looking at HC but I says it requires a lot of lighting too which now, makes me nervous.

And what should I do with the DHG? Maybe uproot it all and just plant it in one corner? Or maybe leave it? I mean, I see runners below the surface but it's just so terribly slow...
Patience is so hard when it comes to aquariums.

edit- Or is there any way of like, getting a new brand of bulb that will be stronger than my current ones? I have 2 of these http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003C5RTOA/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 with this hood http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002DIRAU/ref=oh_details_o06_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Maybe two of these? http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Trichromatic-Daylight-22-Inch/dp/B003C5PQWW/ref=pd_bxgy_petsupplies_text_z

I was confused when buying these to begin with so I just went with my gut and well... guess it wasn't a great choice haha

[genocidex]

the bulbs you bought are the ones you can use with that light. theres no way around it. if you wanted to try to throw some diy leds under it, that might help but i doubt it will be enough unless you go with 5w+ each. but theres also a missing link between all this. DHG isnt a fast grower at all, unless its given all the nutrients and light it needs. i dont think you would be able to keep up with the co2 reqs if you up the light too much more. you can wait to see if the DHG grows in, you said it yourself they are rooting. dwarf sag would love your tank but i dont think it would be a "carpeting" plant like you want as they are kinda tall. with some work you could do a flame moss carpet, but that would require alot of work lol. i would keep the DHG TBH

[Byron]

I consider your lighting to be high, very high, as it is. The issue is most likely elsewhere.

Aside from that, not all plants will grow together [= in the same tank] for various reasons. When one doesn't work, remove it and try something else.

How are the other plants growing? Is algae present?

Byron.

[Ku0915]

The other plants are doing okay. The stem plants are growing like a weed, and my java moss is spreading too. Only other problems I see are with some browning and small holes of my java ferns, and the tips of a few leaves on my Amazon are yellowing. That's why I also think I'm missing something else because it's not just my DHG that isn't doing so well.

And yes, algae has started becoming present after I added the second light. There's the cloudy algae on my sides, as well as little algae circles and some on the driftwood. It isn't horrible though, it's mainly on my tank sides.

[korith]

Sounds like a possible nutrient issue. I see that you mentioned using fertilizers already. Some plants like amazon swords are heavy root feeders, so they will benefit from a fertilizer in the substrate. I would find some fertilizer root tablets to put into the substrate. There are many brands out there, I use the diy osmocote tablets people make and evenly spread them out in the substrate.

[Byron]

The other plants are doing okay. The stem plants are growing like a weed, and my java moss is spreading too. Only other problems I see are with some browning and small holes of my java ferns, and the tips of a few leaves on my Amazon are yellowing. That's why I also think I'm missing something else because it's not just my DHG that isn't doing so well.

And yes, algae has started becoming present after I added the second light. There's the cloudy algae on my sides, as well as little algae circles and some on the driftwood. It isn't horrible though, it's mainly on my tank sides.

This is a balance issue, so let's see if we can sort it out. I mentioned previously that no all plants do well together, and part of this is light. Anubias, Java Fern, Java Moss are low-light plants, and these must be shaded if the light is bright, as it is here. Java Fern assimilates nutrients from the water via the fronds (= leaves) and the roots; black areas on the fronds is said to be a sign of nitrogen deficiency (ammonium and nitrate). Areas of transparency in the fronds means the plant is receiving too much light. Brush algae is also fond of this plant, and it usually occurs in direct overhead light. I would also be concerned over adding iron, which may be the browning. Iron excess shows as brown blotches on leaves; this can also occur if calcium is not sufficient, as the plant uptakes more iron in place of calcium, leading to an iron excess which is actually a calcium deficiency.

A photo of the tank and some of the plants would probably help. And what is the GH of the water (tap)? This is the prime source of hard minerals (calcium and magnesium in particular).

How often are you dosing Flourish Comprehensive?

Eco-complete is supposed to suply nutrients, but I am highly skeptical of this product or Flourite. When I had the latter (and these two are basically the same) my plants were not doing well at all. After 2 years I pulled the tank apart this past March and replaced the substrate with play sand; already things have improved.

Substrate tabs as another member suggested would certainly help the larger swords. I use Flourish Tabs, one next to each of the larger swords every 3 months. Makes a vast difference.

The algae is also a sign of an imbalance. This tank is only 3 months, so it should now be settled. Diatoms (brown algae) during this period are normal, but should not continue. Green algae is a sign of too high light that is not balancing the nutrients.

You might want to remove one tube, as it seems you added it so presumably it can be removed. Then we can work to balance that. Forget the DHG, it is obviously not managing and the other issues indicate we do have a balance problem there.

Let me know the above info, and we can continue.

Byron.

[Ku0915]

I used the Flourish root tabs about a little over a month ago, and I even put more in a couple weeks ago for my DHG. They don't seem to be doing much at all besides helping the Amazon sword and stems a bit.
I forgot to mention that my readings have been 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 0 nitrates since it was redone. The only time I had an ammonia reading was 2 weeks after I set it up, and it was reading 0.25ppm. Since then though, I haven't had a sign of anything. Note that I did continue using the cycled filter media from when it was set up before, so maybe it's technically cycled... but the 0 nitrates has been worrying me and possibly could be part of the problem. I also test with an API kit that doesn't expire until 2017, so I know it's still okay.
And I don't have a GH kit, only a KH but if it's necessary I can purchase one online. All I know is the tap water has 0.5 ammonia in it so I have to use Prime, and my PH in the tank is pretty high (7.8).

Here's the pictures. Sorry for the brown water, tannin's are still leaking from my driftwood.

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Brownish algae which is usually caused by nitrates, yet I have 0 nitrates in my aquarium. Not sure about this haha
30068
Browning of my java fern
30069
Tips of the fern are becoming a bit translucent
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Yellowing at the tips of my Amazon
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DHG

[Ku0915]

30073
DHG30074
Few leaves on the stems will yellow/brown/get holes and die. The tops also started going pale and brown (maybe too close to light)?
30075
Green algae and spores on the sides
30076
Only thing really thriving is the java moss.

[Byron]

I used the Flourish root tabs about a little over a month ago, and I even put more in a couple weeks ago for my DHG. They don't seem to be doing much at all besides helping the Amazon sword and stems a bit.

I would not expect the tabs to make much difference to the DHG, I still think this problem is more complex. This is not an easy plant for most.


I forgot to mention that my readings have been 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 0 nitrates since it was redone. The only time I had an ammonia reading was 2 weeks after I set it up, and it was reading 0.25ppm. Since then though, I haven't had a sign of anything. Note that I did continue using the cycled filter media from when it was set up before, so maybe it's technically cycled... but the 0 nitrates has been worrying me and possibly could be part of the problem. I also test with an API kit that doesn't expire until 2017, so I know it's still okay.

This is exactly what I would expect, so no problems here. With live plants, you should never see ammonia or nitrite above zero, and nitrate should be below 10ppm. My tanks run from zero to 5 ppm nitrates.


And I don't have a GH kit, only a KH but if it's necessary I can purchase one online. All I know is the tap water has 0.5 ammonia in it so I have to use Prime, and my PH in the tank is pretty high (7.8).

Before spending money on something you may only use once, try to get the GH from the water supply people for your city. Many have a website with water data, or they should be able to tell you. The total hardness, or GH, is what we want to know. From your photos I don't think this is the issue, but it is as well to know, because GH affects fish significantly too.

From the photos, it is not that bad. However, I would modify things a bit. If you are OK not fussing over the DHG, I would remove one of the tubes to lessen the light. Then, dose Flourish Comprehensive twice weekly, the recommended dose, i.e., for a 20g, 1/2 teaspoon immediately following the water change, and another 1/2 teaspoon three days later. Discontinue the Flourish Iron and Flourish Trace, at least for the present. Flourish Comp has all this in it, and in the required proportion that plants need [see below on the ammonium/nitrate aspect]. Depending upon the algae issues, you could reconsider this after a few weeks. I have 7 tanks running, and one of them can only get one dose of Flourish Comp a week or algae immediately increases, whereas the others take two doses, or one Comp and one Trace. It sometimes takes a bit of experimenting to sort out the individual tank's biology.

Clean the algae off the glass at each water change. What is there will not go away, no matter what, but you want to see it not increasing further; then you will know you're on the right track. And the plants need a few weeks after any changes like this to adjust, so don't expect it overnight.

Final comment on the ammonium/nitrate. This occurs naturally from the respiration of fish and the breakdown of organics in the substrate. Plants manily use ammonium; nitrate is only taken up by most when they have no ammonium available, sort of as a last resort. The reason is because the plants have to convert the nitrate back into ammonium, and this takes more energy, so they avoid it when they can. There is some ammonium and nitrate in Flourish Comp, but minimal, as they expect sufficient to be in a fish tank naturally. What is happening here with so much light intensity is that the plants are probably not getting sufficient ammonia to balance, and when this occurs, photosynthesis slows and algae takes advantage. Increasing other nutrients will have much the same effect, unsettling the balance. Finding the balance and keeping it is the aim. You are also adding CO2 so this factors in, but we still need to find the balance.

Hope this helps.

Byron.

[Ku0915]

Wow thank you for your advice! This is incredibly helpful, and I really appreciate it.
Just another question;
I recently added cherry shrimp to help keep things clean, and I know they're sensitive to copper, and the Flourish Trace has small amounts of copper. It says to use it w/ Flourish comp, so should I dose it twice a week as well, or less because of the shrimp? And how often should I dose Iron? (I've went down to every other day now).
And I will reduce one of the lights and just let the DHG would for another month before I decide if I want to try something else. I plan on doing a super cleaning of my tank either tonight or tomorrow and hopefully get most of the algae off. I also wanted to hear your opinion on the light I mentioned (http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Trichr...upplies_text_z) and maybe if I should just replace one of the bulbs with one of these? The only problem I had using one light was it's very dark especially sing the water is tinted, and supposedly this light gives a brighter look to the tank. Plus I can get my money back if I return one of the lights by the 22nd if I end up not needing it anymore.

I'll get back to you on the GH thing once I'm able to find it. May have to go to my LFS to get it tested if it's not anywhere online, but I'll let you know soon!

[Byron]

Wow thank you for your advice! This is incredibly helpful, and I really appreciate it.
Just another question;
I recently added cherry shrimp to help keep things clean, and I know they're sensitive to copper, and the Flourish Trace has small amounts of copper. It says to use it w/ Flourish comp, so should I dose it twice a week as well, or less because of the shrimp? And how often should I dose Iron? (I've went down to every other day now).

You're welcome. On the copper, the minimal amount in any of these plant fertilizers will not harm invertebrates or fish, unless they are overdosed. And by more than just a couple millimeters. Plants have the ability to take up some nutrients beyond their needs, which is why they are such great filters. But we don't want to push this.

I would only use Flourish Comp twice a week for the present. No Trace, no iron. Give this a few weeks and see.


I'll get back to you on the GH thing once I'm able to find it. May have to go to my LFS to get it tested if it's not anywhere online, but I'll let you know soon!

The water folks will likely be more accurate, so I would trust them first. If yo do get it tested, make sure they are using a liquid test, and get the number, not some vague meaningless term like "moderate" or something.


And I will reduce one of the lights and just let the DHG would for another month before I decide if I want to try something else. I plan on doing a super cleaning of my tank either tonight or tomorrow and hopefully get most of the algae off. I also wanted to hear your opinion on the light I mentioned (http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Trichr...upplies_text_z) and maybe if I should just replace one of the bulbs with one of these? The only problem I had using one light was it's very dark especially sing the water is tinted, and supposedly this light gives a brighter look to the tank. Plus I can get my money back if I return one of the lights by the 22nd if I end up not needing it anymore.

The link doesn't work for me...but in any case, the idea is to reduce the intensity, and that means one of two tubes. But, having said that, what are the present tubes? Kelvin is important. Sorry I missed this earlier.

[Ku0915]

The two I have at the moment are T5 5000K high output. The one I linked was 6500K and was recommended to be used with one of the 5000K bulbs but I didn't read that until recently.

And I'll try and head back to the fish store if possible this week or this weekend and let you know the number. Will I need a testing of both the tap water and tank or just tap?

[Ku0915]

Okay, after doing some more research, I checked my CO2 levels again and found a chart letting me know if I was in a good zone. Turns out I'm like, right in the good zone but just barely above too much CO2 (I have 39ppm CO2). For some reason, my PH went down drastically... It was 7.8 for the longest time, but now it's reading 6.8, and I got a new reading of 8 for carbon. Maybe because I did a water change tonight? Hmmm... Now I'm wondering... Is it possible that I have not found a balance with hours of lighting? I've been doing 12 hours on, 12 hours off and then at night the air pump goes on to help level out the CO2, but is it possible I used too much light?
I agree with you that it must be the lighting itself that isn't balanced with everything else, because I have signs off too much lighting (java ferns transparency) that you mentioned. So maybe I should actually cut the hours of lights the tank gets each day rather than the actual light itself? My only problems with the lights are they are very yellow and dark, and with only one it's extremely dark to where I can barely see. It doesn't help when the tank is tinted brown too haha. I'll post a picture later when the lights go back on, but I fully understand if cutting one light is necessary. I just wanted to bring the whole CO2 levels up as well in case that makes sense of the overall problem.
Again, thanks for the help. I really appreciate it.

[Byron]

Picking up on issues from your last two posts here.

First, the tubes. Yes, around 6500K is best for plants. What you have should work, but it will be a bit "warmer" whereas 6500K will appear "cooler" in colour. These terms refer to the amount of red and blue in the colour mix, warmer having more red and less blue, cooler the opposite. I use "daylight" tubes having a K of 6500K on all my tanks. My single tube tanks use Life-Glo tubes which are 6700K. These are on the "cool" side of white, which I find a pleasant hue and it renders plant and fish colours quite true.

I would get one of the 6500K tubes, and then use only that one tube, during this trial.

To the pH. Adding CO2 will lower the pH so no surprise there. Make sure you can shut off the CO2 during darkness. Not only is this wasting it because without sufficient light the plants cannot use it, but it runs the risk of increasing the CO2 and poisoning the fish. Most people with CO2 diffusion have it timed with the tank lights. And running an airstone at night is fine, but not during the day.

Reducing the light duration can help with algae, but duration is not a substitute for intensity. If the light is too intense to balance, the duration will have little if any effect. Once you get the light balanced, the duration can be anything from a minimum of six hours up. This varies from tank to tank; my tanks have 8 hours each day of light, which is the max before algae becomes a nuisance.

Byron.

[Ku0915]

Okay I'm going to order one of those lights right now and let's see if anything improves. And unfortunately since the CO2 is DIY, I can't turn it off but the air stone is only on at night to help that. Thanks for the help! I'll get that light and use it for a few weeks and will update in the future.

[Ku0915]

-bump- update

Got the daylight bulb and I have had it running a little less than 9 hours a day for a few days. I only dosed Flourish comp, but now my sword's and stems look worse. The swords are yellowing even more towards the tips, and some are beginning to get brown spots/holes on the leaves. The stems I have were starting to turn red from a few weeks of dosing iron everyday, but have turned back to green. Can't say much on the DHG because I don't see any excessive growth, but I've decided to leave it alone and see how it does in time.

Do I need to start dosing all ferts? The swords are looking really bad.

[Byron]

-bump- update

Got the daylight bulb and I have had it running a little less than 9 hours a day for a few days. I only dosed Flourish comp, but now my sword's and stems look worse. The swords are yellowing even more towards the tips, and some are beginning to get brown spots/holes on the leaves. The stems I have were starting to turn red from a few weeks of dosing iron everyday, but have turned back to green. Can't say much on the DHG because I don't see any excessive growth, but I've decided to leave it alone and see how it does in time.

Do I need to start dosing all ferts? The swords are looking really bad.

Leaves that were already failing (yellowing) will not recover no matter what. When you re-balance, it is the subsequent growth that you look at.

The brown spots are iron deposits, caused by the plant taking up too much iron. Often this is caused by a deficiency in calcium. I asked previously about the GH of the water but the number hasn't been posted yet...do you know ther GH? This is where your "hard" minerals like calcium and magnesium occur.

Byron.

[Ku0915]

Yeah sorry about not getting the GH, haven't been able to run to the store to get it tested but I will try this week or maybe call a pool store and ask. Sorry for the delay!

And the weird thing is my java fern began dying off completely (leaves were browning and rotting and looked awful) so I pretty much pruned the entire thing and replanted the new growth. My DHG looks extremely green nowadays though, and I only have a little algae on the sides and some on the wood but there's a lot less than before. I'll get back to you soon with the GH when I can.



edit- Okay, called the pool supply store and the guy said he believes the tap water in my area is 110-120 GH. He told me I could come in and get things like iron, copper, calcium, alkalinity, etc tested too. Should I go ahead and get those tests?

[Byron]

Yeah sorry about not getting the GH, haven't been able to run to the store to get it tested but I will try this week or maybe call a pool store and ask. Sorry for the delay!

And the weird thing is my java fern began dying off completely (leaves were browning and rotting and looked awful) so I pretty much pruned the entire thing and replanted the new growth. My DHG looks extremely green nowadays though, and I only have a little algae on the sides and some on the wood but there's a lot less than before. I'll get back to you soon with the GH when I can.



edit- Okay, called the pool supply store and the guy said he believes the tap water in my area is 110-120 GH. He told me I could come in and get things like iron, copper, calcium, alkalinity, etc tested too. Should I go ahead and get those tests?

I'll respond to these issues now, as I tend to forget if I wait for further data.

The Java Fern issue is probably the result of continued inappropriate conditions to the point where it just can't manage. The high light, plus all the iron and trace minerals that were going in the water previously. Sometimes plants take a while to respond to negative factors. Now that you've correct some of this, expect the JF to rebound in time. Though it is a slow-growing plant so this rebounding takes longer than it would with a fast-growing plant.

Don't know if I mentioned it in this thread or another, but aquarium plants require 17 nutrients in fairly specific proportion to one another. Some plants can take up an excess of some nutrients, other plants cannot. Having a deficiency of some nutrient will obviously be detrimental to the plant, but at the same time having an excess of some nutrients can cause problems too. Some nutrients in excess actually cause the plant to shift its uptake so that some other nutrient is no longer taken up. What appears like a deficiency of this or that, is actually due to an excess of something else. This is why I always caution anyone on increasing specific nutrients. If they are missing, fine, add them. But if not, don't. This is also a good way to cause algae issues, because algae is much less demanding and can take advantage of many situations where plants are being hindered.

Byron.

[Ku0915]

I see. I'm still just a little confused with all this so the help is very much appreciated. The iron dosing has confused me because my rotala is supposed to be turning red, and it started to... but then I stopped the iron and they reverted back to green within a couple of days. That's the only reason I think I'm missing out on iron since that plant will only turn red with proper iron levels, but as far as the yellowing and browning of my other plants, it's still confusing.

And how does the GH sound? I will get an exact answer for you (along with the other tests if the store can do them) but that's a rough estimate.

[Byron]

I see. I'm still just a little confused with all this so the help is very much appreciated. The iron dosing has confused me because my rotala is supposed to be turning red, and it started to... but then I stopped the iron and they reverted back to green within a couple of days. That's the only reason I think I'm missing out on iron since that plant will only turn red with proper iron levels, but as far as the yellowing and browning of my other plants, it's still confusing.

And how does the GH sound? I will get an exact answer for you (along with the other tests if the store can do them) but that's a rough estimate.

I haven't seen any rough estimate for the GH...

When we get all this sorted out, the iron may start going back in. But if you are seeing brown blotches in sword leaves, that is excess iron, but as I said possibly due to lack of calcium.

[Ku0915]

I haven't seen any rough estimate for the GH...

When we get all this sorted out, the iron may start going back in. But if you are seeing brown blotches in sword leaves, that is excess iron, but as I said possibly due to lack of calcium.

I called the store and asked the GH for our tap water and he said 110-120. I don't understand exactly what that means, but that's what I've been told so far. I'm going to get another confirmed test hopefully this weekend but that was the only thing I was given.

[Byron]

I called the store and asked the GH for our tap water and he said 110-120. I don't understand exactly what that means, but that's what I've been told so far. I'm going to get another confirmed test hopefully this weekend but that was the only thing I was given.

That number would probably be in ppm (possibly mg/l, which is the same thing for our purposes), so 110-120 ppm equates to 6 to 7 dGH. This is soft. But sufficient for calcium needs of swords; I raise my GH up to 5 dGH and now have no calcium issues.

So, that means the brown spots is due to overdosing iron. And as mentioned previously, I'm fairly confident the Java Fern trouble is iron too.

Let me know if new data is different respecting the GH.

BTW, iron is also likely making the algae issues worse, as algae is known to increase with iron fertilization.

Byron.

[Ku0915]

Okay, I will stop dosing iron. Do you think I should dose it occasionally or leave it out completely? The only plants benefiting from it is the rotala but I agree I have too much iron. The algae is getting a bit crazy on the driftwood.
Would the iron be the cause for the java fern transparency too? Besides browning, they are becoming transparent at the ends but I've read multiple things on the cause of that. Too much light, too little CO2... Or is it really just the iron? I think my CO2 level is low so I'm going to make a new batch soon and quite possibly invest in a power head. Do you think just dosing flourish comp, lights for about 8-9 hours a day, and CO2 will balance things out a bit? Like, what should my routine be?

And thank you so so much for helping me solve this! It was beginning to get frustrating! I will try my best to get as many test results to you this weekend so we can see if there's any other problems besides the iron levels.

[Byron]

Okay, I will stop dosing iron. Do you think I should dose it occasionally or leave it out completely? The only plants benefiting from it is the rotala but I agree I have too much iron. The algae is getting a bit crazy on the driftwood.
Would the iron be the cause for the java fern transparency too? Besides browning, they are becoming transparent at the ends but I've read multiple things on the cause of that. Too much light, too little CO2... Or is it really just the iron? I think my CO2 level is low so I'm going to make a new batch soon and quite possibly invest in a power head. Do you think just dosing flourish comp, lights for about 8-9 hours a day, and CO2 will balance things out a bit? Like, what should my routine be?

And thank you so so much for helping me solve this! It was beginning to get frustrating! I will try my best to get as many test results to you this weekend so we can see if there's any other problems besides the iron levels.

My best advice I think is what I previously said, namely to stop the iron and Trace, and only dose Flourish Comp once or twice a week. And reduce the light down to just one tube, the 6500K (or 6700K, whichever it was).

I have never used CO2 so not sure what to suggest with this.

The idea is to get things down to a minimum so we can achieve a balance. And don't worry about algae on wood, this is natural, by which I mean it is to be expected. We just want to keep it off the plant leaves.

Byron.