water change killing fish

[foshizzle]

Hey guys, this is my first post, so please excuse me if this is in the wrong section or something. Anyway, i have a 10 gallon freshwater aquarium, full of a yoyo loach (to keep snails under control), 2 cardinal tetras, 2 danio glofish, and 2 tetra glofish. Recently, i went to do a water change, and noticed that the gravel had gotten very dirty over the time i have had the aquarium. well i wasn't particularly fond of how it was looking anyway, so i decided to go to the pet store, and buy myself some new gravel. Here is how i went about changing it out. i cyphened half of the existing water into a 12 gallon container, and filled another maybe 2 or 3 gallons of tap water. i then put in the declorinator chemicals to make it safe for the fish. from there i transfered the fish to the container, and dumped the rest of the water and gravel from the fish tank. After giving the tank a good scrub wince i dont normally have the oportunity to clean it like that, I added a scoop of the old gravel, then started adding the new substrate (i rinsed it first). from there, i cyphened half of the water from the container back into the aquarium, and filled the rest with tap water. again i put in the chemical, tho not much at all, and transfered my fish back into the aquarium. the next day, i came back and both of my cardinal tetras had died! i though it was weird that only that one species died. half way through the day, i saw that my glofish tetra had also died! I am very concerned for my fish. I thought it would be a good idea to test the water, and so i did, and everything looked fine except for the hardness, and the ph. the ph was at maybe 6, or 6.5 so i knew that wasn't awful, but could be a little better. But then i looked at the hardness, and it was off the charts. Now i have tested the water before this numerous times, and every time, the water was extremely hard, but i thought that i remembered someone at a fish store saying that hardness didn't matter that much. also i have a filter that has three stages, and one of them i think is supposed to preserve the beneficial bacteria when changing the other stages, so i thought that the tank would be fine even with that big of a water change. Also today, i have noticed the tank start to become a little bit cloudy. not bad, but defiantly not as good as yesterday. What should i do? If you notice anything wrong with my process, please let me know so that i can not do it again, and possibly help out the tank now. thanks everyone, and a response would be greatly appreciated.!

[Flyby Stardancer]

Tetras can be rather sensitive to changes in water chemistry. The shock of being just put into water that's very different than what they're used to can kill them.

And you have some major stocking problems. I ran your stocking through AquaAdvisor (since I'm a beginner hobbyist myself and not as familiar with the different species) and I got this:


Recommendations/Warnings/Suggestions/Notes:

Note: Yoyo Loach on rare occasions will reach up to 10 inches in size.
Warning: Yoyo Loach is not recommended for your tank - it may eventually outgrow your tank space, potentially reaching up to 6 inches.
Warning: At least 3 x Yoyo Loach are recommended in a group.
Warning: Glowlight Tetra may become food for Yoyo Loach.
Warning: Yoyo Loach is too aggressive to co-exist with Cardinal Tetra.
Warning: At least 5 x Glowlight Tetra are recommended in a group.
Warning: Yoyo Loach is too aggressive to co-exist with Glowlight Tetra.
Warning: At least 5 x Cardinal Tetra are recommended in a group.

Warning: At least 5 x Glo Fish are recommended in a group.

Did you cycle your tank to build up beneficial bacteria? How did you cycle it? Did you let the filter media dry out?

[jgranata13]

Ok, I have some questions to help figure out what's going on:
1. When did you get the tank?
2. Did you cycle?
3. Did you add all the fish at once, or did you add them slowly over time?
4. Did you use anything other than water to clean the tank?
5. Just out of curiosity, why did you add ack a scoop of the old gravel?
6. You said that once you cleaned the tank, you ciphoned half the water back into the tank, topped it up with tap water, and added "not much at all" conditioner. Was it at least enough to treat the amount of water that you added?
7. Did you let any of the filter media dry out while you were cleaning the tank?
8. Did your fish look sickly at all before this?

Now, I'll just add a few things that I thought of while reading your post. First, the size of a water change doesn't really matter as long as the water quality doesn't dramatically improve. You can even do a 75% water change and, as long as the water wasn't super-dirty before the change, you would be fine. This is because beneficial bacteria don't live in the water itself, so taking out the water does nothing. Also, more important than correct paramaters (to an extent) is consistency. So if your water is really dirty, and if it suddenly becomes super clean after a large water change, it'll shock your fish.

That sort of leads into my next point. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think tetras and danios come from soft, slightly acidic water. Now, since most fish are never raised in their own environments, it's probably ok for them to be in harder water as long as it's consistent. However, if you say your water is extremely hard, then I'd be inclined to say that that's probably what did them in.

[jgranata13]

Flyby, good thing you mentioned the stocking issues.thumbs2: I was gonna address that but then I forgot.

[Flyby Stardancer]

I've noticed in my short time here that stocking issues come up a lot. :) And while I can't just look at a list of someone's stock to identify problems, AquaAdvisor seems to be a good guide to picking out the worst problems.

[vafa]

if you see gunk on your gravel you don't have to change your gravel.
use a gravel vacuum and get it out.
what are you ammonia readings, nitrite readings, nitrate readings?
what are you testing with?
how did you cycle? whats your filtration?
ph i not important with your fish, as long as it is stable.
do you add ph chemicals? if so stop

[talldutchie]

I've noticed in my short time here that stocking issues come up a lot. :) And while I can't just look at a list of someone's stock to identify problems, AquaAdvisor seems to be a good guide to picking out the worst problems.

Well done!

[foshizzle]

Ok, I have some questions to help figure out what's going on:
1. When did you get the tank?
2. Did you cycle?
3. Did you add all the fish at once, or did you add them slowly over time?
4. Did you use anything other than water to clean the tank?
5. Just out of curiosity, why did you add ack a scoop of the old gravel?
6. You said that once you cleaned the tank, you ciphoned half the water back into the tank, topped it up with tap water, and added "not much at all" conditioner. Was it at least enough to treat the amount of water that you added?
7. Did you let any of the filter media dry out while you were cleaning the tank?
8. Did your fish look sickly at all before this?

Now, I'll just add a few things that I thought of while reading your post. First, the size of a water change doesn't really matter as long as the water quality doesn't dramatically improve. You can even do a 75% water change and, as long as the water wasn't super-dirty before the change, you would be fine. This is because beneficial bacteria don't live in the water itself, so taking out the water does nothing. Also, more important than correct paramaters (to an extent) is consistency. So if your water is really dirty, and if it suddenly becomes super clean after a large water change, it'll shock your fish.

That sort of leads into my next point. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think tetras and danios come from soft, slightly acidic water. Now, since most fish are never raised in their own environments, it's probably ok for them to be in harder water as long as it's consistent. However, if you say your water is extremely hard, then I'd be inclined to say that that's probably what did them in.

1. I have had the tank for some time now, maybe a year or two.

2. By cycle do you mean let the tank run for a few days? if so than yes i did that when i first got it.

3.I added them slowly over time.

4. Just water, but i did use some almost steel wool type stuff that i found for this one part that had loads of algae on it. (underneath the gravel in the back of the tank)

5. I thought that i would be able to preserve some of the beneficial bacteria by doing so.

6. i used 2/3s of what it said to thinking that i didn't need all of it.

7. Do you mean let the filter get dry? if so than no, in the filter where the water is, i just let it sit like that with the water still in it.

8. Before this point, they where doing just fine. Nothing looked wrong with any of them other than their environment (the tank had gotten kinda nasty).

But i have another question. If i where to get rid of the yoyo loach, how would i go about getting rid of these randome snails that keep popping up? I was told by an ignorant store worker that the loach would only grow up to 3 inches. Wow he was wrong. its already about 4.

[foshizzle]

if you see gunk on your gravel you don't have to change your gravel.
use a gravel vacuum and get it out.
what are you ammonia readings, nitrite readings, nitrate readings?
what are you testing with?
how did you cycle? whats your filtration?
ph i not important with your fish, as long as it is stable.
do you add ph chemicals? if so stop

I knew that it didn't need to be changed, i was just sick of the way it looked. I use the vacuums thing about once a month. Nitrite, and Nitrate levels where perfect. Im not sure about ammonia, but i have an ammonia detoxifier chemical. should i use it just to be safe? I did use a hair of ph raising chemical today just to try to bump it up, but afterwards i read that its bad, and doesn't work, so im not going to be using it ever again. Idk the name of the filtration unit, but its the one where there is a foam insert at the bottom, then the carbon, then these pellet things in a little net that are supposed to hold some bacteria when the other stages are changed. Thanks for all the help guys! i really appreciate it!

[jgranata13]

Hmmm... I'm stumped. It doesn't sound like you did anything that destroyed a lot of beneficial bacteria, so I don't really know what happened. I was thinking that may have been a possibility, since clouding after a water change is usually indicative of a bacterial bloom. What water conditioner do you use. Also, I would suggest always putting at least the recommended amount to treat the water just to be safe.

Another question: what substrate did you purchase?

Finally, I don't know about the loach and/or snails because I've never had either.

[Stlouisfish]

I knew that it didn't need to be changed, i was just sick of the way it looked. I use the vacuums thing about once a month. Nitrite, and Nitrate levels where perfect
What is "perfect"? In a cycled tank (which doesn't mean letting a water sit in the tank for a few days BTW) you should have 0 nitrItes and 20 or less nitrAtes. Im not sure about ammonia, but i have an ammonia detoxifier chemical. should i use it just to be safe
The best way to remove ammonia if you have a reading for it (it should be at 0 if your tank is cycled) is to do large water changes (meaning at least 50% at a time)? I did use a hair of ph raising chemical today just to try to bump it up, but afterwards i read that its bad, and doesn't work, so im not going to be using it ever again. Idk the name of the filtration unit, but its the one where there is a foam insert at the bottom, then the carbon, then these pellet things in a little net that are supposed to hold some bacteria when the other stages are changed. Thanks for all the help guys! i really appreciate it!

How often do you change the tank water? You should really vacuum your gravel more than once a month - unless you have a lot of plants in there, lots of gunk can build up in it and lead to poor water parameters.

[foshizzle]

the conditioner is made by api, and is called stress coat. but that reminds me, i wonder if what killed them was just the stress of being taken out of their home, and put into that bucket for a while. i put the heater in it to maintain the temp, but still. the yoyo loach was freaking out, because he didn't have his little volcano that he always hides under (hes very very shy). but im kinda thinking that it was a mix of me doing a almost 75 percent water change, combined with all the stress they must have gone through being in that container. at one point, i had to move the container so i had to slowly drag it to the other side of the room and it created some waves. this stinks. I guess ill wait a while and see how my other fish do before getting any new ones, and see if i can find a way to give my yoyo loach away since he seems to be creating stocking problems. So is it true that really hard water doesn't have a large affect on the fish? mine has always been very hard.

[foshizzle]

my water seems to evaporate pretty quickly for some reason, so it almsot seems like i run out of water when vacuuming, so most of the time, it will be down 10 or 15 percent every week, or week and a half, so i just fill it up. but once a month i will do two changes in a week, so that i have enough water to get the gunk out without having to replace a huge portion of water on the second one. But from what you guys are telling me, it seems that it would be a good idea to do it more often, even though it results in a pretty large water change. Also when i said perfect, i ment that the test said that there was zero nitrite and nitrate.

[jgranata13]

It could have been the stress of moving them around, but I really don't think so. I would suggest switching from API to Seachem Prime, and if you're worried about the hardness of your water, then try buying fish that come from harder waters.

[foshizzle]

so what do you guys recommend on getting new fish? i messed around with that stocking tool, and found that it would work great if i had 6 danio glofish and 5 tetra glofish, and no yoyo loach anymore. how fast should i do this? should i take the yoyo back and get the new ones all in one visit? since now theirs not a lot of fish in the tank, they dont have a lot of buddies to school with. or should i take it slow? if so what do you think, like a few fish per week or something? thanks again.

[jgranata13]

I'm not entirely sure where I stand with GloFish. I can't identify anything wrong with the genetic modifications, but I still can't help but feel like there's something off about them. But that's just my opinion; it's your aquarium, so do what pleases you. Either way, six danios and five tetras is WAY too many for a 10gal tank (it's even pushing it for a 20gal). I would suggest getting only one of those schools - probably the danios because they're hardier, so the hard water won't be as much of an issue - and then get maybe one or two single fish that don't need to be in schools

[Stlouisfish]

Number 1 - I would not put any danios (the glofish) in your 10gal tank - they need much more swimming space than the size allows - they are very active fish and don't stay small - the ones I had grew to almost 2" long each.

Number 2 - I agree with jgranata about what could have stressed out your fish. When people bring new fish home, they are stressed out just from being transferred from the store to your home - which is why it is recommended to quarantine them - let them quiet down, start eating, etc. - stressed fish can lead to sick fish - putting them into a bucket, while temporary, is stressful.

Number 3 - I don't remember why it was you removed your fish for the water change. I'm sure you don't normally do that? Yes, it's good to change a larger amount of water more often - fish like fresh water - don't forget, they are spending their time in water polluted by their own waste and use up nutrients in the water.

I think a decent fish for a 10gal is glowlight tetras - they stay small, are pretty and are hardier fish for tetras. There are also "micro fish" - which I've never seen locally.

[jgranata13]

Number 1 - I would not put any danios (the glofish) in your 10gal tank - they need much more swimming space than the size allows - they are very active fish and don't stay small - the ones I had grew to almost 2" long each.

True! I didn't even think of that. I agree - go for the tetras.

[Longshot]

while d0ing water changes either add the stress c0at t0 the tank (en0ugh t0 treat the ENTIRE capacity 0f the tank) then add the water 0r dechl0rinate the water in a bucket and add t0 the tank- I d0n't kn0w if y0u are adding tap water and then dechl0rinating, but if y0u are y0u will exp0se y0ur filter t0 chl0rine/chl0ramines and kill 0ff y0ur bacteria. Then y0u will need t0 cycle again. I als0 w0uldn't recommend tearing d0wn y0ur tank entirely t0 clean it, it really isn't needed if y0u have a pr0per maintenance r0utine. It just s0unds t0 me that y0u sh0cked the the little guys with a huge change in water quality.

[foshizzle]

while d0ing water changes either add the stress c0at t0 the tank (en0ugh t0 treat the ENTIRE capacity 0f the tank) then add the water 0r dechl0rinate the water in a bucket and add t0 the tank- I d0n't kn0w if y0u are adding tap water and then dechl0rinating, but if y0u are y0u will exp0se y0ur filter t0 chl0rine/chl0ramines and kill 0ff y0ur bacteria. Then y0u will need t0 cycle again. I als0 w0uldn't recommend tearing d0wn y0ur tank entirely t0 clean it, it really isn't needed if y0u have a pr0per maintenance r0utine. It just s0unds t0 me that y0u sh0cked the the little guys with a huge change in water quality.

Hmm weird. I only suggested that amount of those fish because that's what the stocking tool used earlier in he forum told me that it would be fine for my size aquarium and my filter. You guys are saying I shouldn't get glofish danios at all?

[Stlouisfish]

Even if a stocking tool tells you they would be fine, most forum members would advise you against them - they are fast moving fish and need a lot of horizontal space to swim - IMO they would be cramped in a 10gal. We also consider how large the fish will potentially grow - that matters too.

Just because a stocking tool tells you you aren't overstocked doesn't mean your size tank is appropriate for what you want. We speak from personal experience.

[Flyby Stardancer]

Stocking tools are rather handy for developing general ideas, but they're not foolproof. You still need to do footwork to double-check to make sure that the species would actually work in the setup you want to do.

[gronlaura]

For fish profiles and minimum tank sizes for individual species go to www.seriouslyfish.com. I use this site along with AQ Advisor as a guide when working up a stocking list.