Please help me figure out what I'm doing wrong

[hominamad]

Hi - first time poster here and new to the hobby. Here's my situation:

Have a 10 gallon tank - this one to be exact: http://www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetr...l.aspx?id=4261

Set it up 4 months ago and let it cycle for a few weeks - then put in 4 white cloud minnows to start off. I did pretty frequent water tests and all the levels were 0.

After about 2 or 3 weeks I put in a betta. Levels were still 0 during weekly testing and everyone was getting along nicely. About a month later, to finish stocking, I put in 2 platys, and 2 danios for a total of 9 fish.

For almost 2 months, everything seemed to be going great. The fish were getting along great and all the chemical levels came out to 0 in weekly tests.

Then, about 2 weeks ago, I was doing a 20% water change and accidentally sucked the betta up into the gravel vacuum. I felt horrible and quickly got him out of there. I thought he was going to die, but the next day he appeared much better, and the day after that it was as if nothing had happened to him. I should also mention I changed the carbon filter during that water change. 2-3 weeks went by and I thought everything was good.

Then I noticed that one of the platys was acting strange. I tested the water and the ammonia had spiked to 2ppm. A day or two later one of the platys died. A day or two after that the betta went. And yesterday and today 2 of the minnows died.

I have been doing 50% water changes every day since detecting the ammonia and also changed feeding to once every 3 days. Even still, the ammonia seems stuck at 1ppm now.

Now I'm trying to analyze what went wrong. What could cause the ammonia to spike so suddenly and what should I do now. I should mention that the other levels, nitrate, nitrite, etc are all still 0. pH is 7.6 and water temp is 78 deg.

My filter system has a carbon bag filter and also some type of bio foam which you don't change and is supposed to hold the good bacteria. I didn't realize and used plain tap water to rinse the new carbon bag. Could that have killed the bacteria in the bio foam piece or is it not enough to be meaningful? Could the incident with the betta have somehow caused this situation?

I feel so bad that all the fish are dying, and helpless because I don't know what to do next.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

~H

[Trillianne]

Is your tap water chlorinated?

If so... rinsing it in the chlorine certainly would have set your cycle back.

I don't believe the incident with the betta was the causal factor. But since you mention all your readings were at 0 at the first cycled stage... I suspect there may have been some issue with your initial cycling and now its recycling. How exactly did you cycle? If it was just running the filter without adding any ammonia source... that is not the biological cycle that we talk about here, although some poorly informed fish store employees like to call it so.

At this point you are cycling with fish. You need to keep up with your water changes, and in fact increase them to keep the rest of them alive. When your ammonia is at 1.0ppm and you do a wc, it should immediately drop to 0.5 since you removed half the ammonias concentration. However, your fish are still continuing to produce waste (ammonia is a product of waste) and that number rises from that point back up for the next day. So keep up on your water changes.

Eventually enough ammonia converting bacteria will re-grow and you will see Nitrites. Keep up your waterchanges to keep both ammonia and nitrites under 1.0ppm until you get enough bacteria to handle the fish waste load. :)

[talldutchie]

Most likely imo:
Your tank was overstocked. Your filter was barely coping. When the carbon stops absorbing chemical s it is a good place for bacteria to set up. You wiped those out and got a tank crash. Water changes are a good way to deal with the symptoms but you need to add filtration or reduce stock.

[hominamad]

Thanks for the replies. When I do the water change I do see the ammonia level drop. But the next night its right back up again. Another fish died this morning. Now down to 3 fish. I don't understand what keeps making the ammonia go back up again?

How can I avoid this problem going forward when replacing the carbon filter? I thought that the whole point of the bio foam piece was to prevent this from happening. Is this not considered a good filtration system? The woman in the store I bought the set up recommended changing the carbon filter every 2-3 weeks, by the way.

[mommy1]

I agree with both posters above and just want to add this for you to read. http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=36492

Which filter do you have? If possible it would be better to use ceramic media instead of the carbon since ceramic media holds much more bacteria than the sponge and doesn't need replacing.
The ammonia keeps going back up because the fish are producing waste and the bacteria needed to convert it to less toxic nitrates has not been established. This will continue until the tank is fully cycled.

[Trillianne]

What keeps making the ammonia back up is the fish. The ammonia is from fish waste.

With a completely cycled tank, the bacteria colony is large enough to convert the ammonia into nitrite and then into nitrates as quickly as the fish can make it. Unfortunately your colony isn't developed enough to handle it yet. Thus you need to be the "bacteria temporary employee" and do water changes to help them out.

Carbon isn't necessarily needed in a filter set up. It should be used when you need to filter out medication, but you do not actually need to continuously use it. You've be better served by using that space towards bio media to house your bacteria colony.

I think I found the kit you mentioned... and it mentions a PF-10 Whisper Filter as part of the kit. Which is rates up to 10 gallons. What they don't mention is that it is not really designed for a well stocked 10 gallon, but more for a lightly stocked 10 gallon. If you have too many fish producing waste there may not be sufficient water flow for the bacteria colony to grow to where it can keep up.

So for the future.... continue with water changes. Replace the carbon with something more suitable for your bacteria to grow. When you rinse the sponge out, make sure you do it in dechlorinated water, such as old tank water. And do read that link mommy suggested so you better understand the biological cycle.

[hominamad]

Got it. Will definitely research the other filter options as well. I understand the cycle, but figured that since all 9 fish were living happily for for 2 months or so that everything was in balance and set up correctly.

[Knightia]

You've had good advice so far. You were pretty badly overstocked in my opinion. As fish grow and mature they will produce more waste.

Don't put danios in a tank that small - they are very active, powerful fish that need room to swim. You could keep one betta in a 10 gallon OR a 3/4 guppies/endlers OR 8 neon tetra at a push. I personally wouldn't keep anything more than that in it and feel comfortable - even then I would want to ensure my filter was rated for double the tank size.

Hope you manage to save the final fish (if any are left). Keep up with those water changes. If your ammonia is above 0.25 change the water again...and again, until it is at or just below that reading.

[hominamad]

I really appreciate the help and advice from all you guys. It's good to know there's a community like this to turn to. It feels so helpless watching all the fish die and not even being sure of the cause or what to do about it.

The 3 remaining fish are hanging on so far. Ammonia level still high - did a 50% water change just now. I have one or two more questions maybe you guys can help me with.

How do most people physically go about performing the water change? The way I've been doing it is, I'm using a cleaned out gallon plastic milk container. I've been getting my tap to the right temperature, putting a few drops of water treatment in the container, and then filling it up, and dump it in. The thing I'm confused about is for the water treatment solution, the bottle says a whole cap full for 10 gallons. But I'm not clear how you're supposed to measure or mix it because obviously I don't have another 10 gallon container. So I've been sort of estimating it. Can I just put non treated water right in the thank and then pour in a half cap full of the treatment? OR does it have to be mixed first and then poured in? I doubt this has anything to do with my problem, but I wanted to mention it.

Also, if I wanted to upgrade my setup, how could I go about doing that? I do have that whisper 10 filter that Trillianne mentioned above. Can I replace that with a stronger, better filter, or can I use the same filter but with a different medium?

I'm sure I'll come up with more questions - but thanks again to everyone who took the time to help me out.

~H

[hominamad]

One addition to my last post - this filter seems to have very good reviews. Not sure if it would fit my tank, but if I were to purchase something like this would it be a better choice for my 10 gallon set up?

http://www.amazon.com/AquaClear-20-Power-Filter-Includes/dp/B000260FVG/

[Trillianne]

The best way to ensure your water is dechlorinated correctly is after you take out the old tank water, and just prior to starting to add your new water, add a full capful (based on your directions of 1 cap per 10 gallons) to your 10 gallon tank, and then add the water.

As for the filter question, unless you only plan to lightly stock your tank, your best bet is to get a stronger filter. Generally recommended that you look for twice the filtration rate that you need. For example, you have a 10 gallon, so a 20 gallon filtration would be great. Alternatively you could add an additional 10 gallon filter to gain the additional filtration in combination.

[CrazedMichael]

When you do a water change and you want to treat the water with dechlorinator, you must treat the whole tank. So if the dechlorinator you have says 1 capful per 10 gallons, and your tank is 10 gallons, you should add 1 full capful as per the instructions. Regardless of how much water you take out. If the tank is 20g, and you do 50% water change, you should then add 2 capfuls, and so on.... Hope this helps and removes the stress you previously have,

Also i agree with other posters, you should remove the carbon and replace it with bio media as this is more effective. JUst make sure you clean the media in OLD tank water or dechlorinated water, but only do so when the filter really needs it. Suc as reduced water flow or blocking.

I clean my 2 canister filters maybe every 3-4 months.

[Knightia]

I strongly disagree with the above post. You don't treat the whole tank. If you had a 1000 gallon tank and change 100 gallons you treat 100 gallons. You don't need to dechlorinate water that is already safe! The best way for a small tank like yours is to dechlorinate in the mixing bucket before adding to the tank.

[rodm81]

I strongly disagree with the above post. You don't treat the whole tank. If you had a 1000 gallon tank and change 100 gallons you treat 100 gallons. You don't need to dechlorinate water that is already safe! The best way for a small tank like yours is to dechlorinate in the mixing bucket before adding to the tank.

I have changed my water exactly like crazedmike explained without incident. If using prime it even explains that you can use a double dose. Although you can treat the amount of water removed, it's def easier using the cap full method measurement purposes.

[Knightia]

I have changed my water exactly like crazedmike explained without incident. If using prime it even explains that you can use a double dose. Although you can treat the amount of water removed, it's def easier using the cap full method measurement purposes.

But if you do regular partial water changes and dose for the entire tank each time you are adding unnecessary chemicals to the main water column every time. If you did daily partial water changes of 10% and dosing the entire tank you would be overdosing your 10% change by 10 times on a daily basis. I cannot think this would be in any way good for the tank, and if anything, would starve your beneficial bacteria of the ammonia/nitrites needed to keep them alive.

Please can you explain the reasoning behind dosing the entire tank when making partial water changes? Why?

[Cermet]

First off, your water changes and basic approch are excellent - good work. Most advice here is excellent.

A few words - what appears to have happened is that the charcoal (what everyone seems to call carbon) was what did the fish in after you rinsed it in water that had chlorates - activated charcoal can absorb chloine componds like a sponge and then it released them right into the bio-media in the filter wiping out most the bacteria. While charcoal has a purpose, you are far better off just adding extra bio-media. By the way, the amount of bacteria in charcoal is trival compared to bio-media so the loss of the charcoal would mean little; it was the chemicals in the tap used to rinse the charcoal that caused the filter 'crash'.

As for dosing the tank for 10 gals when you just replace 5 gals is just a safety measure - neutralizer chemicals are cheap but getting the dose slightly wrong can kill/harm fish and/or the filter. While it would be fine to dose, say for 5 gal's worth of neutralizer when doing a 25% water change, most people just can't measure these small amounts easily. That all said, if you really did do such a worthless water change like a 1 gal change, guessing about half a capful would be fine. Not just a good idea if the w/c is close to 5 gal and you just guess for the amount by judging what half a cap full is. As for the chemical, the filter bacteria 'eat it' so no, it does not build up and is harmless.

Best of luck and keep up the water changes until the ammonia drops to near zero; be on your guard for a nitrite spike.

[mommy1]

I cannot think this would be in any way good for the tank, and if anything, would starve your beneficial bacteria of the ammonia/nitrites needed to keep them alive.

Please can you explain the reasoning behind dosing the entire tank when making partial water changes? Why?
Prime and other dechlorinaters don't remove ammonia they just detoxify them for a short time so the bio-filter can deal with them with less stress on the fish during the process, so using enough to dose the whole tank will not starve the bacteria.
As for dosing enough for the entire tank, in general I agree with you, there is no real need to dose the entire tank if you are using buckets and can add just enough for each bucketful added. I can see instances where it might be necessary, such as using a python or aqueon water changer, since water is being added directly to the tank, chloramines will also be added to the entire tank. Another time might be if there is a larger than "normal" amount of ammonia or nitrites in the water either during cycling or such as in my case, often having 1ppm ammonia in my tap water, as per the instructions on the bottle of Prime (I don't know what the the other brands instruct in this case) it is safe and recommended to add enough to dose the whole tank.

[Knightia]

I've done some more reading on this - I think the key is whether you add the dechlor directly to the tank or to the water in a bucket. If to the tank - dose the entire tank size. If to the bucket before pouring into the tank - dose the bucket size only.

Well, I've learned something.

I'd stick to dechlorinating water before it's added to the tank for small tanks (bucket water changes) though. It's less wasteful.

[CrunchyLeaf]

I've done some more reading on this - I think the key is whether you add the dechlor directly to the tank or to the water in a bucket. If to the tank - dose the entire tank size. If to the bucket before pouring into the tank - dose the bucket size only.

Well, I've learned something.

I'd stick to dechlorinating water before it's added to the tank for small tanks (bucket water changes) though. It's less wasteful.

I understand the wasteful argument when you're dealing with a larger tank.
I think the whole point of adding the dechlor directly to the tank is to make dosing easier. For a bottle of prime, for example, the right dose for a ten gallon is to fill the cap to the first thread inside the cap. Unless you go out and buy a dropper with measurements on it and exactly measure each dose, you're more likely to overdose the tank by guessing how much to add to each gallon.
This is just going off of my own bottle of prime. I'm sure there's a drops per gallon reference for other dechlors.

The other benefit to adding it right into the tank is to avoid a fatal mistake. We all get distracted during water changes sometimes. I personally watch tv while i'm doing a wc. Adding five individually treated gallons of water to your tank gives you five separate opportunities to forget to add dechlor.

[hominamad]

Good info here. After these posts and doing a bit more reading, I just ordered a new filter and also a bottle of Prime. (was using some other product before)

This is the filter and Prime I ordered:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000260FVG/
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00025694O/

First, is this a good filter for my setup/situation? And second, assuming this filter will fit in my space, what is the best way to begin using the new filter without causing yet another crash? Should I take the bio foam piece out of my old filter and put in temporarily somewhere in the new filter so I save the bacteria?

Once this whole situation is behind me and my tank stabilizes, I will be back here reading for stocking suggestions. I did feel that the tank was too crowded with 9 fish. Also the danios were way too active for this small tank. I think 6-7 fish is a good amount - but would like to find fish that are a bit more interesting to watch. The platys were kind of nice. I also did enjoy the betta. Can I keep a betta and 4 more small fish with this 20 gallon rated filter?

[mommy1]

An AC20 is a decent filter and a good size for your 10g. You could stuff the filter media from the old filter into the new one if it will fit, but I would run them both for about 4-6 weeks if you have room on the tank.
Some bettas can be kept with other fish and some can't, it depends on the attitude of the betta you buy. I would certainly try it but be prepared in case you get a betta that doesn't like tank mates.

[Mister Limpet]

Do the bottles of Prime have a dropper in the top? The de-clhorinator I use does, and the first thing I did is count how many drops it takes to fill a cap. Divide that by 10 and there's your drops per gallon dose. Mine came out to almost 10 drops per gallon.

On my smaller tanks I use a 1 gallon plastic water bottle for mixing new water. (Buffalo Don actually sells 1 gallon bottles with 8 "free" ounces, which leaves room for mixing)

I also stuck one of those cheap stick on thermometers on the bottle to help me match the temp.

Fill the bottle, put the necessary amount of drops, shake and pour into tank. Perfect dose, complete mix.

On larger tanks where I use a python, I just sit there and add drops at the rate that seems like 10 per gallon or so, right at the output of the hose. Never had a problem.

Dosing the entire tank, including the water that doesn't need treating seems wasteful and foolish to me. I'd worry about build up of chemicals.

[Betta113]

As far as stocking, both the white cloud mountain minnows and the zebra danios are actually subtropicals, and are best at 64-75 degrees. I realize they were OK in your tank at a higher temp, but maybe the added stress made them less tolerant of the temp. Also, they both like to be in a group of at least 4-8.

[hominamad]

Hi everyone - just wanted to give a quick update. I installed the filter I mentioned previously (AC20) 2 weeks ago. I moved the bio mesh piece from the old filter and temporarily put it into the new one. Overnight I immediately noticed the water looked much more clear with the new filter. It has been 2 weeks so far and I'm still experiencing extremely high ammonia levels.

Currently my readings are: Ammonia 6-8ppm; Nitrate: 0ppm; Nitrate: 0ppm. I have also cut down feeding to around once every 3 days.

I currently have 3 fish left - the two danios and one of the white cloud minnows. My first question is, how are these fish even still alive with ammonia levels that high? I don't understand because the other 6 fish died all within the same week - and that was almost a month ago. How are these other fish still around?

My other question is: is it normal to have Ammonia this high still at this point, with feedings being so sparse? And also, why are the nitrate and nitrite readings still showing 0? Does this mean that the bacteria has not yet started to form?

Thanks again,

H

[scotchbonneteater]

The bacteria have not developed yet as your ammonia is not being cycled into nitrite/nitrate. What type of test kit do you have and what ph value are you at as a ph below about 6.2 will kill the BB or stop it developing.

[justanothertank]

just wanted to chime in on the water change thing . When i was doing lots of really large or medium sized ( 50-75 %) water changes recently on my 20 gallon high . i was lugging 5 gallons at a time and using prime with a tiny measuring spoon (over the bucket ) to do the entire 5 gallons mixing it any spillage went in with it so it was also a drop or two more. never really had a problem doing it this way. Then again i was doing this to remove really high nitrates after cycling + i have 9.0 ish nitrates off my tap making it more difficult. IF i had ammonia levels as high as him id just be dosing the entire tank( with the proper amount via a spoon over the tank so if you fill the spoon a lil to much it drops it in anyway ) as it detoxes it for 24-48 id imagine that would be much better for his livestock. now that my tanks stable i am still just dosing the bucket i am adding. This can make a large bottle of prime go a long long way if you never have to do emergency detox doses for the entire tank.

if i were you id keep doing large daily water changes to get that down and Detox the entire tank when you replace the water. once your stable id just probably do the proper amount for the bucket you're using. Definetly move away from the charcoal bag and get a better media imo. Then again i am going to be getting my self a python soon, so i will doing the entire tank when i refill.

[hominamad]

My pH is 7.2. Still very high ammonia levels and 0 nitrates/nitrites. I'm using the liquid test kit. The new filter has been running for several weeks now. Is something else wrong? I moved the bio mesh from my old filter into the new one. Could that have anything to do with it?

I also don't understand how these 3 fish are alive with such high ammonia levels. I'm wondering if my tests are off somehow now. Is it possible that residue from a previous test could be in the tube and messing up the results? I usually just rinse the tubes after I'm done - don't was them in the dw or use soap, etc.

[talldutchie]

Do you shake the bottles very, very well? Is the test perhaps expired.

[CrunchyLeaf]

Prime does detoxify ammonia for like 24 -48 hours so it's possible that is what is saving your fish from the ammonia with frequent water changes. You still need to get that down though with several back to back large water changes.