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jwal90
02-03-2013, 03:01 PM
Hi everyone, registered here as I purchased a 90-litre tank second hand the other day and have a question I thought you may be able to help with.

Bought the tank, including fish on Wednesday, got it back to my flat and all set up, ran it for a couple days then went and purchased more fish on Friday. One of the fish I bought was an angel fish and he seems to be acting strangely.

When I turn the lights on, he disappears in a corner and doesn't emerge again until I turn them off. He won't feed or do anything until it's dark in the tank. Is this usual behavior for an angel?


Thanks

jeffs99dime
02-03-2013, 03:08 PM
I noticed you set this tank up on Wednesday and there are fish in the tank already. That would lead me to believe that this tank is not cycled. Is that correct? Are you testing for ammonia, nitrites? Have you read the stickies on cycling?

mizzoutank
02-03-2013, 03:10 PM
welcome to the forum,

we'll need to know a bit of information to help.

90L=24gallon tank, for all non metric people :P

have you cycled the tank? or just added water, then added fish?
what is your filtration?
and what are the other inhabitants in the tank, the other fish.

Goes to 11!
02-03-2013, 04:41 PM
What are the dimensions of this tank, I balk at the idea of a mature angel [Which I am pretty sure that this isn't yet .. But one day will be] in such a small tank.

DO read the cycling with fish sticky, It's relevant. Can you list all your stock in this tank please?
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Indian Woods Angels
02-03-2013, 05:26 PM
Have you ever kept an aquarium before? If this is your first one you have a few things that you will need to know.

fishmommie
02-03-2013, 05:31 PM
Welcome. You need to start making immediate water changes to save your fish. Unless you had an established filter with media seeded with beneficial bacteria, you have set up a tank without properly cycling it and will need to do diligent water changes to save your fish.
please go to the beginners section and read the stickie on cycling with fish. It will tell you what you need to track your tank's water perimeters and what you need to do to keep the fish alive. As soon as you do that, come back to us with questions and we will attempt to help.

jwal90
02-03-2013, 08:36 PM
I should clarify I bought the tank second hand, so it was already established when I brought it home. Apologies, I probably given you guys a bit more info there.

When I bought the tank it came with the fish, rocks, plants etc. The fish were 4x neon tetra, 4x harlequins, 4x glow-light tetras and a chinese algae eater. I had to add some extra water to the tank to top it up but I treated it first. After I'd done all that and the fish looked happy I bought 4 more black phantoms, a shrimp and the angel fish.

I wouldn't say there's an issue with the size, I picked out the smallest angel fish I could find and he's only around 3 times bigger than the tetra.

I did changed one of the filter pads but it doesn't seem to have caused any issues. I also added some 'general tonic' which came with the tank when I bought it because it was supposed to help with diseases etc.

Hope I've given you enough info there, let me know if you need to know anything else.


Thanks

fishmommie
02-03-2013, 09:40 PM
Okay - back to square 1 :o)
Please tell us what your water perimeters are so we know first if it's a water quality issue. what are your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings? And are you using an API liquid test kit or strips when you test? And if you are NOT testing, best advice is to go purchase an API liquid test kit (not strips as they are highly inaccurate) and test right away then let us know the readings.

In the meantime, since water quality issues can be attributed to many problems, I'd make a 50% water change today if possible to see if that doesn't improve things with the angel. Make every effort to keep the new water temp the same as the existing water temp in the tank to avoid shocking the fish.

It's possible that changing out your filter pad MAY have cost you some of the beneficial bacteria that had been established in the tank and could be causing an ammonia spike which could affect the angel's behavior.

It would still be to your benefit to read the cycling stickies so you can get a grasp on the nitrogen cycle in a tank and how best to maintain good water quality.
Fingers crossed that things go well.

Again - let's start with the water and see what's up from there. We can address stocking issues once we know what shape your water is in.

Goes to 11!
02-04-2013, 12:02 AM
It's not how big he IS - fish grow.. Again, What are the dimensions of this tank?

It is how big & territorial he will be and if he decides that entire tank is his at sexual maturity there will be nowhere to run for the entirety of your stock. You cannot say you weren't warned.

Btw did you know that neons are a natural part of the diet of angelfish in the wild? You have that to potentially look forward to also.

At any point when you brought this tank home was your filter media dry?
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Indian Woods Angels
02-04-2013, 02:57 PM
I'd like to see you keep these fish alive, I'm not so certain that your tank is what we call cycled fully. There is a bit more to keeping fish in an aquarium than water, add fish. People with an experience in keeping fish generally know the most important stuff. New fish keepers tend to not know these basic things. It can be sort of complex and over whelming at first, that is why I ask if you have ever kept fish and have the basic knowledge of keeping them. Some of the first things you need to keep fish are test kits or the ability to have your water tested at a shop that sells fish. These tests tell us what the condition of the water is as far as able to house fish with a quality of life. Most often people are not patient enough with an aquarium and stock it too soon with pretty fish. This causes the fish to act incorrectly or to become sick from poor water quality. If a fish keeper is not patient and thorough they will usually have problems, these problems become very disappointing and the keeper will usually be off put by the situation and the tank ends up in the next garage sale.

There are several information threads on this site that explain how to cycle a tank, with or without fish. If you are a fairly good keeper you may get away with taking a tank and moving it and having no troubles, if not you may have a couple of issues. The main issue is that what is thought to be established (little poo eating bacteria) is alive. If it did not survive the move...it is no longer established. If you have lost or damaged your poo eating bacteria you will need to worry about the stuff they ate getting to be too much in the water. That is what you will be testing for. Fish tanks are a bit of work and require a certain amount of dedication. About as much as a cat.

FreakyFishie
02-04-2013, 06:26 PM
When I bought the tank it came with the fish, rocks, plants etc. The fish were 4x neon tetra, 4x harlequins, 4x glow-light tetras and a chinese algae eater.

First off, how did you bring the tank and fish home? I'm assuming the fish were put in a bucket of tank water and the tank emptied for transport? In this case, what did you do with the filter and tank substrate? The filter is what holds your biomedia, whether with ceramic beads, filter sponge ect. The substrate is also very important for this reason. Therefor, if EITHER became dry or dried out, your biomedia could've died. When that happens the tank must be fully re-cycled to restore it to it's previous state as creating live biomedia is the point of cycling.


I wouldn't say there's an issue with the size, I picked out the smallest angel fish I could find and he's only around 3 times bigger than the tetra.

This shows a lack of research to your chosen fish species. Angelfish get quite large, they can get to be anywhere from 6-8" NOT including finnage.


I did changed one of the filter pads but it doesn't seem to have caused any issues. I also added some 'general tonic' which came with the tank when I bought it because it was supposed to help with diseases etc.

Again, please refer to my above mention of the filter holding your biomedia. Ideally you do NOT want to change out your filter pad, instead, during a water change, save a bucket of tank water to rinse out your filter sponge or pad depending on your model. Changing the filter pad out REMOVES the live biomedia and therefore, takes your tank back to step one for cycling as if a fresh tank. It is okay to completely replace charcoal however.

All in all, I believe your tank, though it was previously established, is back to being a new tank that has yet to cycle. DO NOT buy anymore fish and instead IMMEDIATELY get your hands on a water testing kit, liquid drops are more reliable than the strips. Monitor your tank until reach the cycled parameters of ammonia: 0, nitrite: 0, nitrate: 5-15. Those are the basic parameters of a cycled tank.

jwal90
02-04-2013, 11:20 PM
Right, I used an API liquid test and the readings are as follows:

PH - 7.6
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - Between 5 and 10 ppm
Ammonia - Between 0 and 0.25 ppm

I believe those readings are pretty good?

The filter has 2 pads so I replaced one of them with a new one I had soaked in a sample of the tank water.

The dimensions of the tank are as follows: w: 58cm d: 34cm h: 39cm (height measurement representing water level not tank level)

The fish were transported in the tank by moving half of the water into a bucket and removing rocks etc. The filter was taken from the tank but was replaced within 10 minutes as I only lived round the corner from the seller.

The angel actually seems to have perked up and spent a majority of the time in the centre of the tank, however, the bamboo shrimp seems to have gone from very active to rather subdued in the last 2 days.

Water temp levels have been between 23 and 27 degrees celcius since we have the tank but now seem to be sitting around the 24 mark. This was due to a problem with my stat.

fishmommie
02-05-2013, 05:41 AM
actually, it sounds as though you were able to transfer the tank without losing your cycle. Perhaps the angel was simply a bit out of sorts do being moved to a new home. I'm glad things are looking up for you.
You need to shoot for 0 ammonia as well as 0 nitrites. the .25 ammonia reading could have been a mini spike due to the move and changing out the filter pad.

For ongoing maintenance, try to make a 30 - 50% water change weekly. Also, as was mentioned, no need to change out your filter pads (even though the mfg instructions say so) simply rinse in old tank water when your nitrates start elevating and all should be well. I'd also try to get the temp at a steady 25 or 26C

The remaining problem now is the size of the tank for the angel. You're not even looking at 15 gallons and the very smallest tank a single angel should be in is 30 gallon. It may be small now but angels get quite large and that tank will not be big enough to accommodate it. If you like the angel and want to keep it, please have a plan in mind for down the road. like a larger tank :o) If you don't see a larger tank happening, I'd return the angel then leave the tank stocked as it is with no more fish because there simply isn't room.
much luck and I hope this has helped you and your fish

jwal90
02-05-2013, 07:18 PM
That's great news, I'll be doing a 50% water change this weekend and will be keeping a regular eye on the levels. Really appreciate the help here, I probably did jump the gun without doing my research but glad I've learned a few things and the fish are ok.

I'll keep an eye on the angel and if he get's too big I will have to take him back from the garden centre I purchased him from. Although I am a little put out as the staff there assured me he would be fine in my current tank with the other fish.

I do have another question though. The bamboo shrimp and algae eater have both swam into a small gap between the back of the tank and the filter. They're not stuck or anything but they haven't moved for most of the day. Is this normal behavior?

fishmommie
02-05-2013, 07:40 PM
I'll keep an eye on the angel and if he get's too big I will have to take him back from the garden centre I purchased him from. Although I am a little put out as the staff there assured me he would be fine in my current tank with the other fish.\
I don't mean to harp on this (well, maybe I do) but it's not a question of IF the angel will get too large. If he lives, he will be too large. And placing him in this small tank is not fair to him either way as the small tank could stunt his growth and not in a good way. If you are determined to keep him, you need to buy a larger tank. Minimum 29 gallons - more than double the size you have now. And yes, the fish store should have known better. Again - harping, sorry, but you should return the angel asap as your water quality will rapidly degrade as he grows. your tank is fully stocked without the angel.

I do have another question though. The bamboo shrimp and algae eater have both swam into a small gap between the back of the tank and the filter. They're not stuck or anything but they haven't moved for most of the day. Is this normal behavior?
I don't know anything about shrimp except that they like to hide as does the algae eater. So I don't think it's unusual for that kind of behavior. they are more active at night.

Sandz
02-05-2013, 07:59 PM
Generally bamboo shrimp set up shop in one spot near flowing water and spend their whole life there filter feeding. Its not always going to be easy to see but its life is not spent moving from spot to spot searching for food but is sedentary and filters little things out of the water. That is a very big reason they are recommended only in well established tanks.

Goes to 11!
02-05-2013, 08:24 PM
I'll keep an eye on the angel and if he get's too big I will have to take him back from the garden centre I purchased him from. Although I am a little put out as the staff there assured me he would be fine in my current tank with the other fish.

Well.... :think: Garden center staff are world renown for their lack of fish knowledge (blush) [But it's your job to know what can go in your tank anyway:11:] & It's not all about the angels size, Please re-read post #9.
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